As BR notes, Pujols’ 3-homer/6 RBI game only garnered 21% WPA.
Suitably baited I went looking for the lowest WPA for batter with at least 3 homers and 6 RBI, and came across this -12% gem (yes, that is negative) by Dave Kingman:
Bottom of the 1st, 2-on 0-out down 7-1, 3-run homer => +12%
Bottom of the 2nd, 2-on 1-out down 7-6, GIDP => -15%
Bottom of the 4th, 1-on 2-out down 17-6, 2-run homer => +0%
Bottom of the 5th, 0-on 1-out down 21-14, walk => +1%
Bottom of the 6th, 0-on 2-out down 21-18, 1-run homer => +8%
Bottom of the 8th, 2-on 0-out down 22-20, fly out (no advance) => -11%
Bottom of the 10th, 0-on 1-out, down 23-22, strikeout => -7%
It’s gratifying to note though that Kingman also holds the record for the highest 3 homer/6 RBI WPA, giving +110% against the Dodgers in 1978.
No; Jeff Bagwell had -2% in 13-4 win over the White Sox in 1999, scoring -8% for early-inning outs with runners on in a tie/close game and +6% for later-inning homers when the Astros already has a good lead.
Records earlier than the 50s are incomplete, so 34 instances show zero WP.
No, and you’d have to think a bit about how to weight the two terms since they’re on different scales.
Just differencing them though, and using total bases to identify candidates, Greg Colbrunn’s 0.72 wOBA, -0.32 WPA effort (1.04) would likely be a contender, along with Kingman’s 0.94/-0.12 from above (1.06).
Kingman’s team wouldn’t have even gotten close enough for his later flyout and strikeout to be weighted so heavily if he hadn’t hit the early homeruns from way behind in the first place.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
That game is absolutely amazing. The Cubs were down 7-0, 17-6, 21-9 at different points. And then they lost in 10. If they had scored twice in the bottom of the 10th, I would have no hesitation calling it the best comeback(s) in baseball history.
I finished college without debt. Here are the facts about my situation:
1. I paid for my tuition, but my employer reimbursed most of it afterward.
2. I worked 30-40 hours per week throughout my nearly 5-year enrollment.
3. I received Pell grants at the beginning.
4. I lived on a modest income.
5. My rent before I was married was about $225/month for a non-shared room in a 4-room apartment.
6. My rent after marriage (last 4+ years) was $525.
7. We did not have to pay for cell phone service (parents added us to family plan and we rarely used them)
8. Annual tuition was a bit over $6000 for me at BYU as a church member.
9. I never once even applied for a scholarship.
The low price of BYU tuition, the tuition reimbursement, and some very modest help from family (cell phone) were factors in helping me avoid debt, but I think there are sure to be options for people that aren’t as expensive as the ones they mention in that link. And there are many employers that will pay for tuition. I think tuition is generally overpriced, but it’s certainly not impossible to avoid debt without having mom and dad pay your way.
az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde
Agreed. I would also be interested in what your wife was doing during that time (i.e. working, being a student, etc?), but you should feel completely comfortable telling me where the too-personal line is here.
As for me, I finished college without debt because my parents paid. I finished Law School with $120,000 or so in debt. If I had graduated a couple years later, that debt would be the same (or higher) and I would have had much more trouble finding a job that would allow me to manage my payments. I’m fortunate for (1) my parents; and (2) the economy I graduated into.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
My wife worked part-time (10-20 hours) for about $8 an hour while going to school. Her parents paid for her schooling. She stopped working in February of 2007 (when Kelsey was born), and I supported us on a single income while working at the bank, and was actually able to save a little bit of money.
Keep in mind that as a Mormon, I donate over 10% of my gross income to the church.
We kept a pretty strict budget, but we could have been even more frugal had our situation demanded it.
I’ve considered all sorts of grad schools (including law school and MBA programs), but it’s admittedly hard to justify the cost of something that may not ever pay for itself.
az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde
8. Annual tuition was a bit over $6000 for me at BYU as a church member.
Contradicts the validity of this
Keep in mind that as a Mormon, I donate over 10% of my gross income to the church.
Because of this
As BYU’s sponsor, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints subsidizes tuition prices with its members’ tithing funds. In principle, each student attending BYU is on scholarship.
For the 2011-2012 academic year, BYU’s undergraduate tuition is $4,560 for LDS students ($9,120 for non-LDS students).
So basically you had your Church pay for about 5k of your education which probably greatly exceeded your 10% tithing, unless you made more than 50k a year working part time while in school.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
In principle, each student attending BYU is on scholarship.
I never said that my tithing specifically paid for the subsidies. I’m well aware that the tithing of church members as a whole helps keep tuition low for members. I was merely stating that, in addition to all my other expenses, I had at least 10% less income to work with.
az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde
I’d say that, as a whole, the expenses were pretty fairly estimated.
Rent is a bit lower in Utah than it is in Washington or California, as is the general cost of living. Also, as Ed says below, I’d imagine that there are plenty of cheaper options than UW. I’d say that the article is actually quite fair–most people probably can’t afford college without taking student loans or having other huge subsidies.
And I’m certainly fortunate to have gotten into BYU. It likely never would have happened had I not learned to speak Spanish fluently on my mission (long story, but the essential point is that I was able to test out of a bunch of classes for graded credit). My case is not ordinary–I’ll admit that. But that would have been a moot point anyway had I studied seriously in high school.
az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde
It was hard to concentrate in Rosemont at the time… with the constant hayfort wars… and the military jets overhead… and of course, the loud loud random explosions.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
When you say most people, that should include yourself:
Pell Grants, massive govt subsidy that Republicans are now trying to take away.
Basically you were pretty heavily subsidized because of your religious beliefs. I think expecting people to be forced to have those religious beliefs to get thorough college debt free is … well lets just say… highly problematic.
Your wife received financial assistance from her parents which you benefited from as if she needed to pay for school her available income for joint expenditures would have decreased.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
I think expecting people to be forced to have those religious beliefs to get thorough college debt free is … well lets just say… highly problematic.
…when I don’t expect that from anybody.
You’re arguing with yourself here.
az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde
Im making that claim because you are using yourself as an example one of the many paths to get through college debt free. Youre basically saying that if you get your church to pay 20k you can follow my path and end up debt free. I don’t think thats a realistic expectation.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
I’d say that the article is actually quite fair–most people probably can’t afford college without taking student loans or having other huge subsidies.
I fully agree with most that it’s pretty much impossible to make it out of college debt-free without subsidies. Just saying that it is possible under the right circumstances–even if it’s not entirely likely for most people.
My case is not ordinary–I’ll admit that.
I feel I’ve been pretty consistent. I’ve said that it’s possible, though not likely, to avoid school debt. I’ve also said that it’s much too expensive.
As for this comment:
it’s certainly not impossible to avoid debt without having mom and dad pay your way.
Saying that something is not impossible is not the same as saying that something is likely.
az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde
Was that a typical DFA misspelling? That’s what I figured.
If not, that was really fucked up and disrespectful.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
Woah. I absolutely didn’t mean to make that plural rather than possessive. There should be an apostrophe there. Im really sorry about that.
My big point on this, is that a lot of people who get a lot of help think that they are the ones that are responsible for their success. In JediLeroy’s case he had help from the government, his church, and his wife’s family. Especially with declining help from the government and private scholarship donors (like churches), and a lot of families unable to help, most people don’t have access to the opportunities that both Jedi Leroy and I had.
Even if it is possible to live in super shitty conditions and work 40 hours a week in addition to going to the cheapest school that isn’t going to look that good on a resume and not ever be able to socialize or pay for extracuricular activities, is that the society we want? We’re the richest society in the world. We can do better.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
That is what I meant by sloppy. I am sure Cal State San Marcos (or WSU for that matter) has a much lower cost of living that the UW.
That being said, you benefited from some pretty steep subsidies, which I am sure factored into your choice of school (I have yet to meet anyone that went to BYU that has a bad thing to say about the place). But like the guy says, having no debt is not the goal of higher ed (I think my undergrad debt wsa around $5000, in 1995, it didn’t seem like a bad bet to me, and still doesn’t). Its great that the person can get out of college debt free, but that person makes for better internet fodder than reality.
Its great that the person can get out of college debt free, but that person makes for better internet fodder than reality.
Right. And I fully agree with most that it’s pretty much impossible to make it out of college debt-free without subsidies. Just saying that it is possible under the right circumstances–even if it’s not entirely likely for most people.
az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde
Meh I got nearly 80,000 in scholarships and grant and I still ended up with 35k in student loans. My parents and I paid about 30k. I went to an above average private school in Oregon, which because of the aid and the cost of living, was cheaper than UCs would have been. I absolutely could not have done it with out my parents footing the bill.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
I know it’s probably not a popular idea with you or anybody, but I do feel that families should have some responsibility for the expenses of their children (and parents when they’re old). It’d be better if everything were somehow affordable for everybody, sure, but I like the idea of families being supportive.
az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde
We’re in a weird time right now, with the needs/ideals of the family at war with the needs/ideals of the state at war with the needs/ideals of the individual.
One or two of those sides will eventually lose the war, and we will eventually find stability, of course at the expense of what was lost.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
So you think that kids should be punished because their families can’t/won’t pay for college and be (statistically at least in this economy) doomed to a life of significantly less economic well being (reducing or eliminating externalities like higher tax revenue, having a more productive work force, being able to afford health care and not show up in the emergency room, contribute to aggregate demand, etc)?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
You use the word “punished” but that’s not at all true. Hate to break the news to you, but life is NOT fair. Never has been, never will be. The sooner you learn that, the better off you’ll be in your life. You can’t get into college? So fucking what? Use that time to get a leg up on those that do go. What’s better, spending 4 years working your way up the ladder, gaining a wealth of on-the-job experience… or… going to school and learning about stuff that may or may not be relevant to the job you want and then starting at the bottom working for that other guy? I’ve known plenty of people who didn’t go to college and/or didn’t graduate and still have successful lives. You know what they did? They fucking worked. That’s it. Instead of moping around acting like they’re entitled to something better while never having done anything to deserve it, they actually got their hands dirty and worked. Anyone can do that, it’s just a matter of a willingness to stop complaining, STFU, and do it.
Now there ARE things wrong with the system. Those things need fixing. And maybe when they’re fixed something like college will be a little more fair, but that’s not, nor ever really was the problem here. Whatever gets gained in all the protests and all the (hopefully) fixes, the answer is not entitlement. If you go into all this with that expectation and that demand, you’re going to lose and deservedly so. If anything, it’s that sense of entitlement that’s the problem.
which leads me to my brilliant/insane theory of the day:
Semi-bogus bachelor’s degrees from shady religious institutions are the best buy in the educational world, dollar for dollar, for the piece of paper alone.
That piece of paper won’t get you hired anywhere, but it’ll qualify you for promotions later on, whether you learned anything or not in “school”
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
If there were fewer idiot college graduates, you would start to see this.
I work with a lot of highly-skilled workers with no college degree, and I can only imagine that spending four years dicking around as an English major would have been disastrous for their careers.
This presents a completely unrealistic portrayal of the ability to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. The number of people able to do that are A) extrodinarily lucky B) hugely small in number C) mostly significantly older and did so at a time where not having a college degree wasn’t so debilitating.
If your fine with a society where you are born into a caste this is an appropriate position to take.
No one is asking for entitlement, we are asking for a level playing field.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
Perhaps reforming a system in which not having a college degree is debilitating is a better option that making it so that everyone has to go to college.
Problem is, to an employer a degree is short hand for, “I can make a commitment to doing something that in the short term puts me worse off, but I expect it to benefit me in the long term, and I have sufficiently mastered English to understand rules and follow directions, and I have a higher likelihood of being intellectually curious, and have a higher likelihood of being a stable person”
My grand pappi completed his free 4th grade education and moved on to the farm, then to catching hot rivets in a pan on large buildings going up in LA. America (California) paid for the education he needed to catch those hot rivets. HE and his coworkers were the drivers for the economy and they got just the education they needed, for free, so the Mr. Monopoly man could make even more money.
Today, most of the drivers of the economy are service jobs that need some sort of post HS education. I am not sure why Mr. Monopoly man can’t pay for it since he is getting a skilled worker out of it.
There’s been a proposal (not sure if serious) to undercut some of the UC tuition increases through corporate funding but if true, that opens up a whole other can of worms.
That’s an unicorn to us UC students who are fighting to retain current ~30K tuition + cost of living levels.
Even if it happens, I’m not so sure that’s a good idea. Increasing opportunities to attend college to the point where almost everyone has a bachelor’s may simply result in the devaluation of bachelor’s degrees all across the board. In which case, you’d simply be right back where you started. We see this already as more and more viable jobs require some form of graduate school and for many majors, a bachelor’s only earns you a pittance. DMOAS has a point. It sucks but part of the reason why a college degree is valuable is because some have it and some don’t.
I do think there are very little practical benefits to a liberal arts degree, which really sucks because I believe there’s a lot of value in the liberal arts. But if you want a liberal arts education, you’re probably better off going the iglew route and not attending college altogether.
I apologize if my drunkenness/naivete is getting in the way here, but I remember reading Kurt Vonnegut’s “Player Piano” and thinking that it might actually come to play someday that a person would have to get an advanced degree merely to get a minimum wage job, due to there being so few jobs and so many educated potential employees.
Hopefully, I’m just a drug addled fool and none of that ever comes to pass.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
I agree, but to MikeV’s point, HR-bots look for the tick box and if its marked “College” it goes on to the next round of evaluation and if its marked “not-college” it is put in the “thanks, but no” pile.
I apologize if I’m wrong, but for a lot of jobs, HR looks to see if the “college” box contains something like “Berkeley” or “Harvard” or “Stanford” or “Yale” and throws the rest of the applications into the circular file.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
right once you have crossed the first hurdle, then the tiering of you school becomes important.
College is just a proxy used by HR. It shouldn’t be that way. In fact, reading lenscrafters comment, it seems downright stupid to pay $25-30,000 over 4 years to get an entry level job.
@Ed, for many people, including quite a few of my peers in less attractive majors who are just now realizing how bleak their prospects are after graduation sans graduate school, it is. Though I wouldn’t call it stupid, just not practical.
COme thanksgiving, there are going to be thousands of unemployed newly minted lawyers.
The SF public defenders office had hundreds of applicants for a few volunteer lawyer positions (DFA, could you please sick your hounds on Adachi for the blatent exploitation of skilled workers). Those people will get 1) experience 2) nothing else, in exchange for a 6 month commitment.
yeah, we are stuck with this system now and I don’t think any incremental change will help.
Big employers will have to change the way they hire before college changes. I don’t mean corporate sponsorship of majors (like that isn’t what grad school is now anyway). But they should pay more for the benefit they are getting.
The problem with that, is there are still ways around even that. If you feel your deserving of that particular hierarchy and the company you work for doesn’t give it to you, there are other companies that *will* give you that opportunity. So what if you have to take that position on the A’s instead of the Yankees. If you do a good enough job when given that opportunity, that door on the Yankees will open up to you. Yes it sucks that it takes longer, but it’s far from closed.
You’re bitching about universities, not jobs. The job market right now is a fucking bitch. Plain and simple. The economy sucks ass, there’s zero question of that. Any job is difficult to get at the moment and NO ONE right now is getting a serious opportunity. That’s the right problem. Your “I can’t get a cheap university degree right now” isn’t connected to that. It’s an entirely separate issue regardless of the link to pay, etc. But these things come in cycles and if you plug away with what you can get right now and wait it out, those opportunities will open up. It’s an issue of patience, nothing more.
You are wrong. Im bitching about an economic system that requires expensive degrees and doesn’t provide jobs that make that investment worthwhile, while the alternative is betting on an anomaly of statistics. Im not talking about being rich. Im talking about being comfortably able to raise a family and perhaps own your own home eventually.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
You’re looking at the last 2 – 3 years in a vacuum and determining “I’m screwed”. I’m looking at the last 10 – 15 and determining “Right now sucks, wait, have a little patience.” In the last 10 – 15 years the necessity of an expensive degree in order to get and maintain a job you’re talking is absolutely false. And I suspect that even now that’s not true, it’s just a reality of few opportunities all across the board. The economy right this moment is an anomaly, one that sucks for everyone but the insanely rich, but one that eventually will be resolved and things will pick back up again. Things need to change, absolutely. The system needs an overhaul. Things need to be more fair, absolutely. But your attributing the necessity of a degree as a key factor in the system is just wrong.
You realize that one of the biggest factors that determines lifetime earnings is the earnings is your starting salary of your first job. you just cant wait. This economy is destroying millions of dollars of future wealth.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
I do. But I also realize that a stall like this affects everyone’s earnings. Don’t think I don’t sympathize with someone starting out right now like you. I know several people without jobs and struggling. I know at least one person who’s likely going to going to have to take a massive pay cut in order to just be employed and that’s assuming she can even get a job right now. Even with her education that’s supposed to give her a supposed leg up, the opportunities just to interview are few and far between. There’s going to be a major impact on their earnings and those who are currently employed as a result of all of this. And yes, that pisses me off as much as it’s pissing you off.
Your position in these arguments and this statement contradict themselves. This is not a temporary problem its the problem over the last 30 years. Wages and production are no longer aligned. Either you want to do something about it or you support what is happening right now.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
Bullshit. They’re doing it now. Are they a minority among non-college bound people? Sure. But mostly a result of most people who don’t take the college route being fundamentally lazy or otherwise unwilling or unable to put in the effort, in other words, the demographic itself is prone to having few people willing to commit to that route. This is a fair playing field, things cost money. Student loans are available, grants/scholarships are available. Hell, you don’t have to go to a UC, city colleges/state schools are available and viable. You want cheap access to the upper echelon of education, that has nothing to do with fair and everything to do with a sense of entitlement.
Bullshit. No one is doing it now when you compare it to either successful people that have gone to college or the population that it came from. They are a statistical anomaly.
Student loans are the problem when the economy collapses and people cant find jobs to pay them.
City colleges graduate less than 1/4 of their students to universities to finish their undergraduate degree, let alone the number of people that finish their undergraduate degree after that.
It still costs 25k to go to SF state so I don’t know where you think that that is cheap/viable, especially considering its not a very good school.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
Hmm… they’ve gone up. Still, that’s 25k over the course of 4 years. That’s still affordable.
But I still disagree on the anomaly. It’s sample bias. The demographics of someone inclined to go to school is significantly more likely to lead to a successful life because they’re naturally inclined to put in the effort. Someone who doesn’t go to school is significantly less likely to lead a successful life because their’ naturally inclined NOT to put in that effort.
The reality is NO ONE is happy, regardless of whether they went to school or not, whether they graduated or not, whether they did either of those things now or 10 – 20 years ago. NO ONE IS HAPPY. Hell, I haven’t had a salary increase in 3 years, prior to that 2.5 years (and that was before the collapse). I even had to take a salary cut after putting my job on the line by threatening to quit as they were trimming the payroll. So I understand that the economy sucks ass, believe me, I do. But outside of the big corporations, the adherence to “I went to Haaaarvaaard…” isn’t nearly as critical as people seemed to want to think and you can (eventually once things get back on track) make a decent living. But to cry foul as if those graduating now or going to school are the only one’s impacted, is just flat out wrong.
This is just not accurate. Those who don’t go to school are significantly more at risk to volatility affecting your job. Look at Nevermoors link below. Mobility doesn’t exist in this society.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
The demographics of someone inclined to go to school is significantly more likely to lead to a successful life because they’re naturally inclined to put in the effort. Someone who doesn’t go to school is significantly less likely to lead a successful life because their’ (sic!) naturally inclined NOT to put in that effort.
You have to add some serious geographic and/or other qualifiers to that statement or it becomes highly offensive.
In addition…the degree to which college students do not put much of an effort into their studies is remarkable. I’m as inclined to think a college student plays frisbee and misses all their lectures as I am to think that they are studious and conscientious. After spending eleven years around undergraduates, including four being one, I think college is as much a four-year party as it is an intensive course of study.
I think there is value in learning to socialize and otherwise deal with people too.
To me, if all college is is a time to lock yourself in the library learning how to solve progressively more complicated equations THEN it becomes an irrelevance that could be replaced by some PPV online learning suite.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
Like I said above, that’s a separate issue from the school one. There are economical issues that need to be fixed and creating true job opportunities as a major issue that needs to be addressed and I see that as being something correctable once the bigger picture is addressed.
The problem with the numbers in things like the link you threw out and similar reports is that it doesn’t account for the sample demographics. You could make college free like you do K thru 12, but there are still going to be a significant portion of non-college attendees who will still not go to college and those people along with migrant workers, etc. will significantly weigh down that data making it suggestive that gap is extreme. The gap exists, no doubt, but until you can account for the people who actually put in the effort to succeed outside of college vs. those that really didn’t, it’s really hard to make a decisive account of what the real impact of it is.
1. It is very hard to live a better life than your parents in this country, as compared to both historical US data and current world data.
2. This is bad.
3. The best jobs tend to go to people with college degrees.
4. Making it easier for people to obtain college degrees without relying on the parents will make it easier for people who are born into poor families to succeed on their own merits.
5. We should do that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I believe there are a lot of smart people who don’t apply to the UC system – or even the CSU system – because they cannot afford to go. I believe this is a problem, and one that could be addressed by reducing the cost of the UC and CSU systems. I do not believe that people who do not apply to a UC because they cannot afford to are not “people who actually put in the effort to succeed”.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
I strongly believe that smart children with poor parents should have an opportunity to succeed (including going to college). And that’s not some radical point, that’s the way things worked until the boomers started to decide that paying taxes was akin to armed robbery and dismantled education systems.
Do you not believe that?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
I went to a public school, took out a moderate amount in loans, asked my folks to help me cover the rent once, worked every summer, majored in something that people will pay for, and declined to pay any money toward post-graduate education. Tidy little formula for me, but YMMV.
Somewhat unrelated, but if college financing weren’t given away like candy crack to teenagers, you would see far fewer ethnic studies majors wondering where the fuck all the jobs are.
To your question, I entered the job market in July ’09, after the downturn started. People in my field and level were getting jobs but they weren’t as well-paying nor as glamorous as they had been a few years prior. My impression is that things are similar, although – yes – not finding work is becoming more common.
Having said all that, I won’t claim that my experience was typical, which is why I put my last sentence in there (I didn’t intend for it to sound snarky).
Oh, totally understand. I’m just trying to learn from more experiences.
As to the first point, I think society would suffer in real ways if people didn’t study history, [blank] studies, etc. Even though they don’t directly link to high-paying jobs.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
The problem is that they don’t directly link to *any* jobs, save turning around and teaching it to others (academia). It’s not that these things are useless to study. It’s that they are useless as professions in the quantity that schools are graduating these folks.
If it were up to me (and how come nobody asks?!?), an expanded base of general knowledge courses (psych, econ, writing, business, math, science, home econ, etc.) would be required for two years. Specialized courses (accounting, engineering, law, finance, science, math, government, medicine, etc.) would round out the next 2-4 years, depending on the program, and graduates would be ready to enter the workforce (including law and medicine). The specialized courses would be purposefully geared toward professional preparation, and by design the number of anthropology degrees would be capped at a much lower number than the number of electrical engineering degrees.
Universities have been grossly derelict in preparing students for not being students.
If the fundamental purpose of college is not job training, then there’s no reason for the government to support four-year resorts for middle-class kids.
It’s something school generally sucks at anyway.
Only in the narrowest possible definition of “school.” It doesn’t have to be this way.
Well a big part of the problem is that many of those folks thought they would go to law school but since no one has been able to get a job, law schools are experiencing a huge glut of new applicants who intern are depressing prices for first year associates and making it just not a good idea anyway.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
oh and another thing I want to to answer: do pitchers that have to wait for a long time while his/her team is batting pitch more poorly in the subsequent half inning?
They can but this was specifically for hitters – for pitchers, see below.
Win Probability Added measures how much the probability of one team winning changes with each plate appearance, using historical records to determine the probability of winning in every scenario (inning, outs, baserunners). Here I’m looking at each players total WPA over the course of a game.
To get the feel of WPA consider these two scenarios:
(i) down by 1 with 2 outs and a runner on 1st in the bottom of the 9th; very low win probability (WP), so a walk-off single + 3-base error has a correspondingly high WPA.
(ii) 20 runs ahead in the 9th the WP is already so high that even a grand slam barely changes it, and has a correspondingly low WPA.
Similarly for pitchers, keeping tight games close scores much higher than cruising through a blow-out.
I kind of like the ballot the way it is, leaving it up to the individual writers to determine how to quantify a player’s importance to his team. I strongly feel it should be the player who gives his team the biggest boost to the postseason, and I rarely vote for an MVP candidate whose team does not go to the postseason, unless it’s a really weak crop of candidates from the playoff teams. But the other interpretation — best single season — is a valid one, too. Going through the winners over the years, the voting is usually very sound.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
Moscoso’s complete game shut-out against KC mentioned by FSU above comes in at 26th/32% … if the hitters had been true A’s that day and limited themselves to a single run it would have been much higher, but once they reached 7 the WPA for keeping the lead was negligible.
That has to be well within the individual WP uncertainties – I’d call it tied.
The odd thing with pitching WPA is that, provided the pitcher isn’t pulled, making a mistake and recovering from it (with no runs scored) is identical to just mowing the batters down. In these two cases both starters defended early 1-run leads for 8 innings, and any non-scoring hits, walks, errors, etc they gave up end up being irrelevant to their WPA totals.
I guess it depends on what you’re trying to measure. In terms of the probability of winning it doesn’t really matter, and over the long haul giving up hits and walks will hurt WPA – some of them will score and the pitcher will be pulled earlier.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
1) I don’t agree that this is a great world series yet. Sure games 1and 2 were fun. Game three was not and game 4 was just your average game. Maybe it will be a good series, but so far, its been just about what and 4 game sequence would be.
2) It would probably better to note the smart or not dumb things buck and McCarver say.
1) Agreed. There haven’t been a lot of big tension moments. Those are what make a series great.
2) I got nothing. Oh wait… no. Joe Buck’s voice annoys the shit of out me almost as much as McCaaaaavaaaaa…
I assume that’s the work of you and your homemade backyard trebuchet.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
After the first CS, they kept talking about how they thought that Pujols had called a hit-and-run himself, and were pretty matter-of-fact that some hitters regularly do this. That’s a new one on me – has anyone else heard of hitters signaling for a hit-and-run on their own?
In fairness, Generation X could use a better spokesperson. Barack Obama is just a little too senior to count among its own, and it has debts older than Mark Zuckerberg. Generation X hasn’t had a real voice since Kurt Cobain blew his brains out, Tupac was murdered, Jeff Mangum went crazy, David Foster Wallace hung himself, Jeff Buckley drowned, River Phoenix overdosed, Elliott Smith stabbed himself (twice) in the heart, Axl got fat.
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
“Live and Let Die” came on the radio the other day, and as I was listening to it I began to realize that this was an absurd, ridiculous song. The only thing stranger than McCartney’s “Live and Let Die” was Axl’s classic cover.
I never gave a shit about fantasy football until this year. I really like Nevermoor’s 16 picks format, though. It’s a nice way to make the games more interesting without having to do a shitton(ne) of research.
Of course, the fact that both my teams are division leaders doesn’t hurt, but it would still be fun even if I wasn’t winning.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
I gotta wonder what Jeff Mathis thinks of all that. If I were him, I wouldn’t complain, because it would be giving me a job, but he has to know he is the worst player in the majors, right?
So to bring this all full circle, as Napoli accepts the MVP trophy Jeff Mathis will throw a chair at him and miss badly, but Mathis will get $21 million a year through 2014 anyway. Do I have this right?
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
The plaza is a flattened debris field. All the tents are squished down, with the exception of the wooden accordian-style frame of the one big yurt they had, which was likely too substantial to be trompled to the ground.
Lots of barricades and cops (from several jurisdictions), hardly any protestors left around. Plaza looks like it’ll stay blocked off awhile for cleanup; I’d guess the City will take its time before unbarricading, so as to stop the protestors from reassembling tonight.
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
There was no way the City could keep letting the encampment go as it was. It was getting sketchier every day and especially night, proportions changed to maybe a third each Occupy protestors, homeless who relocated to the Plaza, and agitators who wanted to provike a police confrontation.
Since the group was refusing to allow regular public safety services to occur (cops prevented from responding to assault cases, paramedics prevented from responding to meidcal emergencies), the City didn’t have much choice.
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
I was responding to DFA’s “why can’t they just leave them alone” question. I don’t tend to condone tear gas and beanbag guns, and I look forward to learning more. But a few cops wading into the mass to arrest selected Occupiers would have been a recipe for real ugliness. There’s no way any law enforcement could occur without huge amounts of backup, which of course would have provoked an Occupier reaction and a downward spiral.
Lots more info to be gathered, but my initial reaction is that the cops were effective at both clearing the encampment, which was absolutely required, without inflicting as much damage on protestors and the surrounding downtown as I thought was destined to be the case.
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
See, I wish that was the case, because that longstanding truth resonates with me. But I know a lot of the Oakland Copwatch and people-of-color empowerment activists, and they were frankly not a substantial part of the encampment over the past 4-5 days. That’s a big reason why things got uglier…the veteran Oakland activists know how to keep a dialog with the City going to work out things like necessary public safety. Whereas the Black Blockheads actively eschew such communication, because they want to provoke confrontation.
Most of the actual Oakland activists left after the City posted its notice Thursday.
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
Thats interesting. I hate the Black Block folks, they always ruin everything and have no real philosophy. I would argue that their presence in Oak instead of SF comes from their desire for police confrontation and knowing the longstanding tension, that they are more likely able to use that tension to support the violent confrontations that they desire.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor
Part of Jerry’s legacy, having been the only city that would accommodate the Marines urban war-games (and the accompanying equipping and training of local police).
Remember rubber bullets and concussion grenades at the anti-war protests at the docks?
Officers fired two or three nonlethal projectiles from a shotgun at protesters who lobbed bottles, cans and other objects, authorities said. One officer lobbed tear gas at the encampment for the same reason, police said.
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
Should the protests/camps be allowed to continue indefinitely and become permanent tent cities/Hoovervilles?
It’s obvious that these protests aren’t going to achieve even close to enough of a critical mass to exact change a la the “Arab Spring”
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
Sure, they’ve had a slight impact on the national discourse and caused some of the rich to spend more of their disposable income on security, but that’s the majority of the impact right there.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
Yeah, but part of that is Obama desperately trying to look effectual and presidential in a time in which Congress is pretty much going to block anything/everything he tries to do.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
So far all I’ve found is that less than 900,000 people refinanced last time, and all they really did was change a few of the terms to meet the refi requirements.
Also one of the links I saw said that it would be considered “success” if 800,000 more refis happened.
And I have to say: mikev is one of my favorite people on here
-slusser.
I don’t pretend to understand the policy completely. The early reviews (which, as I said, are likely incomplete) range from small positive to big positive.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
I originally thought “Hamp II” was the follow-up album to Hampton Grease Band’s “Music To Eat”
but I have since learned differently.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
It is certainly part of it. It’s (at minimum) a transfer of billions from banks to underwater homeowners. Do you honestly think that high, unrefinanceable home loans are no part of what’s motivating the OWS movement?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
Because the demographic of the demographic of OWS protestors did not scream, “we are underwater on our mortgages.” It screamed “we are drowning in student debt,” “we need to tax the rich to fund entitlement programs,” etc.
Yeah, but people squatting in public parks is what the a lot of people think it is, and it’s the most visual element of the protests, or at least it was until the Oakland PD lost their heads.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
If I had to point to one thing it “is” I would point to this. And if anyone can read that and not see how mortgage restructuring is an (admittedly insufficient/incomplete) answer to that…
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"
the more that our tech makes us obsolete, the more that the social safety net becomes SkyNet.
But long before that, Siri and e-discovery software will make most of the lawyers obsolete, and everybody know that masses of unemployed barristers would turn into a mass of zombies before long.
We’re FK’d.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
I don’t know about indefinitely. Oakland’s reasons for stopping the encampment were safety and sanitation, if I remember correctly. Those would indeed be legitimate reasons in light of the upcoming winter. Barring a mass vaccination campaign, those places would indeed be dangerous vectors of disease, such as flu, which would obviously be detrimental to both protestors and ordinary citizens.
I’m in the uniquely local context of “Occupy Sacramento,” which seems mostly about overturning the local anti-camping ordinance so that homeless people can have a legal place to sleep… whether that’s individually in public parks or collectively in a sanctioned Hooverville doesn’t much seem to matter, at least to them.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
Hey guys,
sorry for not posting much lately and making an impression I only come around when I write something. This isn’t much different – I’m preparing a big article on European baseball and have some questions for you:
1. Are you, as baseball fans you are, interested in knowing more about baseball in Europe?
2. Do you know anything yet?
3. Are there any specific aspects about it that you would like to know more about?
We know you’re a very busy person, and I (speaking for myself, but probably most everyone else too) enjoy your presence whenever you have the time to drop by.
1. I am definitely interested in knowing more about baseball in Europe
2. About 30% of what I know about baseball in Europe I’ve learned from you over the last few years
3. the weird nonconformist types who are drawn to an outsider’s game
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
1. Yes
2. I saw part of a documentary on an Irish team. I know what you have posted. and I hear there is this kid from the netherlands, “Dan Haren” who is supposed to be good.
3. Who makes the fields, how does one start to play in Europe
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
Does that depend on what you’re doing at the time? If you’re flying a helicopter, for instance, I think it would be appropriate to be at least moderately afeared.
My sense from the various feeds and tweets is that the tear gas dispersed the main crowd into a smaller bands. Hopefully that’s not the way this turns into more of the Mehserle riot type of vandalism (which does not appear to have been much in evidence from the Occupiers, a little spray paint aside.
As tactically reasonable as the police eviction plan may have been, their protest response plan tonight veyr poorly conceived. And what exactly does a sound cannon do?
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
Ministry rocks, but if I’m going for offensive, I’m gonna stick with Cannibal Corpse, tyvm.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
Back in the day, when Hookslide was a youthful, spritely a cappella group, we rented a rehearsal space from some dude named Sleiz. But even though we were (and are) loud for an a cappella group, we were easily drowned out by the band next door.
One day, their noise was so overwhelming that we decided to go over and ask them to turn it down.
Knock knock knock.
< door opens >
“Hi, we’re Hookslide, next door.”
“Hey.”
“Great sound, what are you guys called?”
“Satanica.”
“Uh…cool. Well, could you turn your sound down a notch?”
“No.”
“OK, thanks.”
Did I give you one of my CD’s at ** day last year?
Some of my lyrics are pretty FK’d up… much worse than most metal… and they’re very clear and audible too.
One of my more recent songs is called “Snuff Film Chase Scene” and it starts out with
“Excuse me… umm… since you’re dying anyway, you mind if I make a snuff film? It’ll pay for your funeral expenses so your kids don’t have to”
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
I’m not a Metallica fan…I shut the door on metal in an earlier day, retaining a nostalgic appreciation of Black Sabbath and Judas Priest and eschewing most everything that came after. But I do like genre-blending (Judgement Night soundtrack FTW!), and I enjoyed this Klosterman review of the new Lou Reed and Metallica album Lulu. For stuff like this:
An abridged list of things Metallica has done to cause its fan base to feel betrayed: getting haircuts, making a video for “One,” headlining a Lollapalooza tour no one really liked, responsibly dealing with their alcoholism, writing a song that required James Hetfield to sing on key, hiring a replacement for bassist Cliff Burton, replacing the bassist who replaced Cliff Burton, not having enough bass on … And Justice for All, not writing songs that were 11 minutes long, suing the same people who purchased their T-shirts, writing the song “2×4,” wearing trousers that cost more than $33, and transitioning away from a lyrical preoccupation with killing other people and toward a lyrical preoccupation with killing themselves.
and
It should be noted that I’m looking at this situation mostly from Metallica’s perspective because Reed’s motives are impossible to comprehend. It’s possible that — from his position — this is actually the most commercial thing he’s ever attempted. I also think it’s possible he convinced Lars Ulrich that alienating the people who love you is an important part of being important. Which, of course, is true.
All this said, in all likelihood I’ll never listen to Lulu. I listened to Metal Machine Music; once was more than enough.
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
Wow. Mark McGwire’s lost A LOT of muscle since he quit juicing…
…oh, wait…
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
OK, no, in all fairness it was probably just side 1 all the way through, then enough samples of the rest to be reasonably sure that Lou didn’t actually sneak in something listenable.
"Kraut will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no kraut."
Side 1 of New York is one of the best album sides ever.
Side 2 is kinda boring.
\"Weren\'t you already aware the Kay is already writing everyone\'s story? We\'re all just characters who believe we are real. Things make more sense now, don\'t they. Be honest.\"- DMOAS
fuck the giants.
/test>
As BR notes, Pujols’ 3-homer/6 RBI game only garnered 21% WPA.
Suitably baited I went looking for the lowest WPA for batter with at least 3 homers and 6 RBI, and came across this -12% gem (yes, that is negative) by Dave Kingman:
Bottom of the 1st, 2-on 0-out down 7-1, 3-run homer => +12%
Bottom of the 2nd, 2-on 1-out down 7-6, GIDP => -15%
Bottom of the 4th, 1-on 2-out down 17-6, 2-run homer => +0%
Bottom of the 5th, 0-on 1-out down 21-14, walk => +1%
Bottom of the 6th, 0-on 2-out down 21-18, 1-run homer => +8%
Bottom of the 8th, 2-on 0-out down 22-20, fly out (no advance) => -11%
Bottom of the 10th, 0-on 1-out, down 23-22, strikeout => -7%
It’s gratifying to note though that Kingman also holds the record for the highest 3 homer/6 RBI WPA, giving +110% against the Dodgers in 1978.
what the fuck is your opinion about Kingman’s performance in that game though? (around 1:20, but the rest is good too)
That’s absolutely hilarious.
Is that the only negative one?
No; Jeff Bagwell had -2% in 13-4 win over the White Sox in 1999, scoring -8% for early-inning outs with runners on in a tie/close game and +6% for later-inning homers when the Astros already has a good lead.
Records earlier than the 50s are incomplete, so 34 instances show zero WP.
I have to admit I was hoping for an A-Rod sighting.
He’s done it twice, and his lowest WPA was 24%.
That’s… not exactly unclutch.
Here’s a question: Do you have the ability to search for something like “biggest difference between wOBA and WPA”?
No, and you’d have to think a bit about how to weight the two terms since they’re on different scales.
Just differencing them though, and using total bases to identify candidates, Greg Colbrunn’s 0.72 wOBA, -0.32 WPA effort (1.04) would likely be a contender, along with Kingman’s 0.94/-0.12 from above (1.06).
Baseball really is a funny sport. Not everywhere can you have an all-career game that actually hurts your team.
Kingman’s team wouldn’t have even gotten close enough for his later flyout and strikeout to be weighted so heavily if he hadn’t hit the early homeruns from way behind in the first place.
I’m fairly certain that wOBA can be converted to runs (and therefore wins) by multiplying by PA/1.15.
[(wOBA – league average wOBA) / 1.15] X PA
Thanks, and go As.
That game is absolutely amazing. The Cubs were down 7-0, 17-6, 21-9 at different points. And then they lost in 10. If they had scored twice in the bottom of the 10th, I would have no hesitation calling it the best comeback(s) in baseball history.
I had not seen this facebook meme, but if it exists here is a good, but sloppy debunking
A+ link
I finished college without debt. Here are the facts about my situation:
1. I paid for my tuition, but my employer reimbursed most of it afterward.
2. I worked 30-40 hours per week throughout my nearly 5-year enrollment.
3. I received Pell grants at the beginning.
4. I lived on a modest income.
5. My rent before I was married was about $225/month for a non-shared room in a 4-room apartment.
6. My rent after marriage (last 4+ years) was $525.
7. We did not have to pay for cell phone service (parents added us to family plan and we rarely used them)
8. Annual tuition was a bit over $6000 for me at BYU as a church member.
9. I never once even applied for a scholarship.
The low price of BYU tuition, the tuition reimbursement, and some very modest help from family (cell phone) were factors in helping me avoid debt, but I think there are sure to be options for people that aren’t as expensive as the ones they mention in that link. And there are many employers that will pay for tuition. I think tuition is generally overpriced, but it’s certainly not impossible to avoid debt without having mom and dad pay your way.
I’d be genuinely interested which items you thought were over-costed in the article.
Agreed. I would also be interested in what your wife was doing during that time (i.e. working, being a student, etc?), but you should feel completely comfortable telling me where the too-personal line is here.
As for me, I finished college without debt because my parents paid. I finished Law School with $120,000 or so in debt. If I had graduated a couple years later, that debt would be the same (or higher) and I would have had much more trouble finding a job that would allow me to manage my payments. I’m fortunate for (1) my parents; and (2) the economy I graduated into.
My wife worked part-time (10-20 hours) for about $8 an hour while going to school. Her parents paid for her schooling. She stopped working in February of 2007 (when Kelsey was born), and I supported us on a single income while working at the bank, and was actually able to save a little bit of money.
Keep in mind that as a Mormon, I donate over 10% of my gross income to the church.
We kept a pretty strict budget, but we could have been even more frugal had our situation demanded it.
I’ve considered all sorts of grad schools (including law school and MBA programs), but it’s admittedly hard to justify the cost of something that may not ever pay for itself.
Thanks for that.
This
Contradicts the validity of this
Because of this
So basically you had your Church pay for about 5k of your education which probably greatly exceeded your 10% tithing, unless you made more than 50k a year working part time while in school.
There’s no contradiction.
I never said that my tithing specifically paid for the subsidies. I’m well aware that the tithing of church members as a whole helps keep tuition low for members. I was merely stating that, in addition to all my other expenses, I had at least 10% less income to work with.
I’d say that, as a whole, the expenses were pretty fairly estimated.
Rent is a bit lower in Utah than it is in Washington or California, as is the general cost of living. Also, as Ed says below, I’d imagine that there are plenty of cheaper options than UW. I’d say that the article is actually quite fair–most people probably can’t afford college without taking student loans or having other huge subsidies.
And I’m certainly fortunate to have gotten into BYU. It likely never would have happened had I not learned to speak Spanish fluently on my mission (long story, but the essential point is that I was able to test out of a bunch of classes for graded credit). My case is not ordinary–I’ll admit that. But that would have been a moot point anyway had I studied seriously in high school.
It was hard to concentrate in Rosemont at the time… with the constant hayfort wars… and the military jets overhead… and of course, the loud loud random explosions.
Heh–by then, I’d moved to Orangevale.
But I remember growing up terrified of the world ending in a nuclear disaster at Rancho Seco.
When you say most people, that should include yourself:
Pell Grants, massive govt subsidy that Republicans are now trying to take away.
Basically you were pretty heavily subsidized because of your religious beliefs. I think expecting people to be forced to have those religious beliefs to get thorough college debt free is … well lets just say… highly problematic.
Your wife received financial assistance from her parents which you benefited from as if she needed to pay for school her available income for joint expenditures would have decreased.
I don’t see how you make claims like this:
…when I don’t expect that from anybody.
You’re arguing with yourself here.
Im making that claim because you are using yourself as an example one of the many paths to get through college debt free. Youre basically saying that if you get your church to pay 20k you can follow my path and end up debt free. I don’t think thats a realistic expectation.
These are my commments:
I feel I’ve been pretty consistent. I’ve said that it’s possible, though not likely, to avoid school debt. I’ve also said that it’s much too expensive.
As for this comment:
Saying that something is not impossible is not the same as saying that something is likely.
Yeah, except you did have a mom and dad pay for your wives education.
Have a nice day.
{snerk}
Was that a typical DFA misspelling? That’s what I figured.
If not, that was really fucked up and disrespectful.
Woah. I absolutely didn’t mean to make that plural rather than possessive. There should be an apostrophe there. Im really sorry about that.
My big point on this, is that a lot of people who get a lot of help think that they are the ones that are responsible for their success. In JediLeroy’s case he had help from the government, his church, and his wife’s family. Especially with declining help from the government and private scholarship donors (like churches), and a lot of families unable to help, most people don’t have access to the opportunities that both Jedi Leroy and I had.
Even if it is possible to live in super shitty conditions and work 40 hours a week in addition to going to the cheapest school that isn’t going to look that good on a resume and not ever be able to socialize or pay for extracuricular activities, is that the society we want? We’re the richest society in the world. We can do better.
wives’?
No offense taken there.
How’s come you guys have fun arguments like this when I’m not around for the day?
I wanna join in. Stupid Mormons. Stupid hipsters.
but what about the Mormon hipsters! You can only have 10% of my barista tips as tithing!
The ones that ride their bikes around the neighborhood on fixies?
Thanks, and go As.
“Fixsionnaries,” they call themselves.
That is what I meant by sloppy. I am sure Cal State San Marcos (or WSU for that matter) has a much lower cost of living that the UW.
That being said, you benefited from some pretty steep subsidies, which I am sure factored into your choice of school (I have yet to meet anyone that went to BYU that has a bad thing to say about the place). But like the guy says, having no debt is not the goal of higher ed (I think my undergrad debt wsa around $5000, in 1995, it didn’t seem like a bad bet to me, and still doesn’t). Its great that the person can get out of college debt free, but that person makes for better internet fodder than reality.
Right. And I fully agree with most that it’s pretty much impossible to make it out of college debt-free without subsidies. Just saying that it is possible under the right circumstances–even if it’s not entirely likely for most people.
Meh I got nearly 80,000 in scholarships and grant and I still ended up with 35k in student loans. My parents and I paid about 30k. I went to an above average private school in Oregon, which because of the aid and the cost of living, was cheaper than UCs would have been. I absolutely could not have done it with out my parents footing the bill.
I know it’s probably not a popular idea with you or anybody, but I do feel that families should have some responsibility for the expenses of their children (and parents when they’re old). It’d be better if everything were somehow affordable for everybody, sure, but I like the idea of families being supportive.
We’re in a weird time right now, with the needs/ideals of the family at war with the needs/ideals of the state at war with the needs/ideals of the individual.
One or two of those sides will eventually lose the war, and we will eventually find stability, of course at the expense of what was lost.
So you think that kids should be punished because their families can’t/won’t pay for college and be (statistically at least in this economy) doomed to a life of significantly less economic well being (reducing or eliminating externalities like higher tax revenue, having a more productive work force, being able to afford health care and not show up in the emergency room, contribute to aggregate demand, etc)?
You use the word “punished” but that’s not at all true. Hate to break the news to you, but life is NOT fair. Never has been, never will be. The sooner you learn that, the better off you’ll be in your life. You can’t get into college? So fucking what? Use that time to get a leg up on those that do go. What’s better, spending 4 years working your way up the ladder, gaining a wealth of on-the-job experience… or… going to school and learning about stuff that may or may not be relevant to the job you want and then starting at the bottom working for that other guy? I’ve known plenty of people who didn’t go to college and/or didn’t graduate and still have successful lives. You know what they did? They fucking worked. That’s it. Instead of moping around acting like they’re entitled to something better while never having done anything to deserve it, they actually got their hands dirty and worked. Anyone can do that, it’s just a matter of a willingness to stop complaining, STFU, and do it.
Now there ARE things wrong with the system. Those things need fixing. And maybe when they’re fixed something like college will be a little more fair, but that’s not, nor ever really was the problem here. Whatever gets gained in all the protests and all the (hopefully) fixes, the answer is not entitlement. If you go into all this with that expectation and that demand, you’re going to lose and deservedly so. If anything, it’s that sense of entitlement that’s the problem.
To a point, that’s correct.
However once you get to a certain point, simply the lack of a college degree — ANY degree — is a barrier to moving up the ranks.
Thanks, and go As.
which leads me to my brilliant/insane theory of the day:
Semi-bogus bachelor’s degrees from shady religious institutions are the best buy in the educational world, dollar for dollar, for the piece of paper alone.
That piece of paper won’t get you hired anywhere, but it’ll qualify you for promotions later on, whether you learned anything or not in “school”
..I’m listening
Thanks, and go As.
There’s got to be that specific thing around, mikey…
Depends on what field you work in and who you work for.
This can be made less true if we don’t push a college education as some kind of dream be-all end-all for all children.
Which starts by employers not requiring a degree in order to move up the ladder at work.
Thanks, and go As.
Which, of course, the government could never do (even if it were a good idea).
And also this.
If there were fewer idiot college graduates, you would start to see this.
I work with a lot of highly-skilled workers with no college degree, and I can only imagine that spending four years dicking around as an English major would have been disastrous for their careers.
[blinks]
I love you, LB.
Apparently, sal does not.
This.
This presents a completely unrealistic portrayal of the ability to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. The number of people able to do that are A) extrodinarily lucky B) hugely small in number C) mostly significantly older and did so at a time where not having a college degree wasn’t so debilitating.
If your fine with a society where you are born into a caste this is an appropriate position to take.
No one is asking for entitlement, we are asking for a level playing field.
Perhaps reforming a system in which not having a college degree is debilitating is a better option that making it so that everyone has to go to college.
We only takes yeggs whats been to college.
Problem is, to an employer a degree is short hand for, “I can make a commitment to doing something that in the short term puts me worse off, but I expect it to benefit me in the long term, and I have sufficiently mastered English to understand rules and follow directions, and I have a higher likelihood of being intellectually curious, and have a higher likelihood of being a stable person”
I think there should be a better way to determine tenacity and perseverance than a 25K-50K a year certificate.
And I also think the proliferation of college degrees nowadays renders the more likely to be “intellectually curious and stable” part moot.
Like… by a $0/year in tuition public college degree?
And, this ignores the idea that there is any meaningful benefit from a liberal arts degree
My grand pappi completed his free 4th grade education and moved on to the farm, then to catching hot rivets in a pan on large buildings going up in LA. America (California) paid for the education he needed to catch those hot rivets. HE and his coworkers were the drivers for the economy and they got just the education they needed, for free, so the Mr. Monopoly man could make even more money.
Today, most of the drivers of the economy are service jobs that need some sort of post HS education. I am not sure why Mr. Monopoly man can’t pay for it since he is getting a skilled worker out of it.
There’s been a proposal (not sure if serious) to undercut some of the UC tuition increases through corporate funding but if true, that opens up a whole other can of worms.
That’s an unicorn to us UC students who are fighting to retain current ~30K tuition + cost of living levels.
Even if it happens, I’m not so sure that’s a good idea. Increasing opportunities to attend college to the point where almost everyone has a bachelor’s may simply result in the devaluation of bachelor’s degrees all across the board. In which case, you’d simply be right back where you started. We see this already as more and more viable jobs require some form of graduate school and for many majors, a bachelor’s only earns you a pittance. DMOAS has a point. It sucks but part of the reason why a college degree is valuable is because some have it and some don’t.
I do think there are very little practical benefits to a liberal arts degree, which really sucks because I believe there’s a lot of value in the liberal arts. But if you want a liberal arts education, you’re probably better off going the iglew route and not attending college altogether.
I apologize if my drunkenness/naivete is getting in the way here, but I remember reading Kurt Vonnegut’s “Player Piano” and thinking that it might actually come to play someday that a person would have to get an advanced degree merely to get a minimum wage job, due to there being so few jobs and so many educated potential employees.
Hopefully, I’m just a drug addled fool and none of that ever comes to pass.
Making Berkeley free would not increase the number of Berkeley degrees. It would increase the social justice of the UC system
Particularly if it was combined with an affirmative-action-on-the-basis-of-finances program.
I agree, but to MikeV’s point, HR-bots look for the tick box and if its marked “College” it goes on to the next round of evaluation and if its marked “not-college” it is put in the “thanks, but no” pile.
I apologize if I’m wrong, but for a lot of jobs, HR looks to see if the “college” box contains something like “Berkeley” or “Harvard” or “Stanford” or “Yale” and throws the rest of the applications into the circular file.
That’s round 2.
Thanks, and go As.
right once you have crossed the first hurdle, then the tiering of you school becomes important.
College is just a proxy used by HR. It shouldn’t be that way. In fact, reading lenscrafters comment, it seems downright stupid to pay $25-30,000 over 4 years to get an entry level job.
@Ed, for many people, including quite a few of my peers in less attractive majors who are just now realizing how bleak their prospects are after graduation sans graduate school, it is. Though I wouldn’t call it stupid, just not practical.
COme thanksgiving, there are going to be thousands of unemployed newly minted lawyers.
The SF public defenders office had hundreds of applicants for a few volunteer lawyer positions (DFA, could you please sick your hounds on Adachi for the blatent exploitation of skilled workers). Those people will get 1) experience 2) nothing else, in exchange for a 6 month commitment.
yeah, we are stuck with this system now and I don’t think any incremental change will help.
Big employers will have to change the way they hire before college changes. I don’t mean corporate sponsorship of majors (like that isn’t what grad school is now anyway). But they should pay more for the benefit they are getting.
The problem with that, is there are still ways around even that. If you feel your deserving of that particular hierarchy and the company you work for doesn’t give it to you, there are other companies that *will* give you that opportunity. So what if you have to take that position on the A’s instead of the Yankees. If you do a good enough job when given that opportunity, that door on the Yankees will open up to you. Yes it sucks that it takes longer, but it’s far from closed.
In this economy there are not companies that will give it to you. This is the whole fucking point and if you don’t realize this you are delusional.
You’re bitching about universities, not jobs. The job market right now is a fucking bitch. Plain and simple. The economy sucks ass, there’s zero question of that. Any job is difficult to get at the moment and NO ONE right now is getting a serious opportunity. That’s the right problem. Your “I can’t get a cheap university degree right now” isn’t connected to that. It’s an entirely separate issue regardless of the link to pay, etc. But these things come in cycles and if you plug away with what you can get right now and wait it out, those opportunities will open up. It’s an issue of patience, nothing more.
You are wrong. Im bitching about an economic system that requires expensive degrees and doesn’t provide jobs that make that investment worthwhile, while the alternative is betting on an anomaly of statistics. Im not talking about being rich. Im talking about being comfortably able to raise a family and perhaps own your own home eventually.
You’re looking at the last 2 – 3 years in a vacuum and determining “I’m screwed”. I’m looking at the last 10 – 15 and determining “Right now sucks, wait, have a little patience.” In the last 10 – 15 years the necessity of an expensive degree in order to get and maintain a job you’re talking is absolutely false. And I suspect that even now that’s not true, it’s just a reality of few opportunities all across the board. The economy right this moment is an anomaly, one that sucks for everyone but the insanely rich, but one that eventually will be resolved and things will pick back up again. Things need to change, absolutely. The system needs an overhaul. Things need to be more fair, absolutely. But your attributing the necessity of a degree as a key factor in the system is just wrong.
You realize that one of the biggest factors that determines lifetime earnings is the earnings is your starting salary of your first job. you just cant wait. This economy is destroying millions of dollars of future wealth.
I do. But I also realize that a stall like this affects everyone’s earnings. Don’t think I don’t sympathize with someone starting out right now like you. I know several people without jobs and struggling. I know at least one person who’s likely going to going to have to take a massive pay cut in order to just be employed and that’s assuming she can even get a job right now. Even with her education that’s supposed to give her a supposed leg up, the opportunities just to interview are few and far between. There’s going to be a major impact on their earnings and those who are currently employed as a result of all of this. And yes, that pisses me off as much as it’s pissing you off.
Your position in these arguments and this statement contradict themselves. This is not a temporary problem its the problem over the last 30 years. Wages and production are no longer aligned. Either you want to do something about it or you support what is happening right now.
Um… how about a $2k/year certificate? They do exist.
This.
What I wanna know is how the Irish became Yeggs…
Yegg, I believe, is a craft appellation, not an ethnic slur.
What, like a ghost on the Millenium Falcon?
Bullshit. They’re doing it now. Are they a minority among non-college bound people? Sure. But mostly a result of most people who don’t take the college route being fundamentally lazy or otherwise unwilling or unable to put in the effort, in other words, the demographic itself is prone to having few people willing to commit to that route. This is a fair playing field, things cost money. Student loans are available, grants/scholarships are available. Hell, you don’t have to go to a UC, city colleges/state schools are available and viable. You want cheap access to the upper echelon of education, that has nothing to do with fair and everything to do with a sense of entitlement.
Bullshit. No one is doing it now when you compare it to either successful people that have gone to college or the population that it came from. They are a statistical anomaly.
Student loans are the problem when the economy collapses and people cant find jobs to pay them.
City colleges graduate less than 1/4 of their students to universities to finish their undergraduate degree, let alone the number of people that finish their undergraduate degree after that.
It still costs 25k to go to SF state so I don’t know where you think that that is cheap/viable, especially considering its not a very good school.
Hmm… they’ve gone up. Still, that’s 25k over the course of 4 years. That’s still affordable.
But I still disagree on the anomaly. It’s sample bias. The demographics of someone inclined to go to school is significantly more likely to lead to a successful life because they’re naturally inclined to put in the effort. Someone who doesn’t go to school is significantly less likely to lead a successful life because their’ naturally inclined NOT to put in that effort.
The reality is NO ONE is happy, regardless of whether they went to school or not, whether they graduated or not, whether they did either of those things now or 10 – 20 years ago. NO ONE IS HAPPY. Hell, I haven’t had a salary increase in 3 years, prior to that 2.5 years (and that was before the collapse). I even had to take a salary cut after putting my job on the line by threatening to quit as they were trimming the payroll. So I understand that the economy sucks ass, believe me, I do. But outside of the big corporations, the adherence to “I went to Haaaarvaaard…” isn’t nearly as critical as people seemed to want to think and you can (eventually once things get back on track) make a decent living. But to cry foul as if those graduating now or going to school are the only one’s impacted, is just flat out wrong.
This is just not accurate. Those who don’t go to school are significantly more at risk to volatility affecting your job. Look at Nevermoors link below. Mobility doesn’t exist in this society.
You have to add some serious geographic and/or other qualifiers to that statement or it becomes highly offensive.
In addition…the degree to which college students do not put much of an effort into their studies is remarkable. I’m as inclined to think a college student plays frisbee and misses all their lectures as I am to think that they are studious and conscientious. After spending eleven years around undergraduates, including four being one, I think college is as much a four-year party as it is an intensive course of study.
I think there is value in learning to socialize and otherwise deal with people too.
To me, if all college is is a time to lock yourself in the library learning how to solve progressively more complicated equations THEN it becomes an irrelevance that could be replaced by some PPV online learning suite.
Do some people do it? Yes.
Do enough people do it? No.
Seems like a problem worth fixing.
Like I said above, that’s a separate issue from the school one. There are economical issues that need to be fixed and creating true job opportunities as a major issue that needs to be addressed and I see that as being something correctable once the bigger picture is addressed.
And providing affordable access to good/great schools is a BIG part of that. Not a separate issue.
You simply aren’t going to create non-degree-requiring jobs at the high end.
The problem with the numbers in things like the link you threw out and similar reports is that it doesn’t account for the sample demographics. You could make college free like you do K thru 12, but there are still going to be a significant portion of non-college attendees who will still not go to college and those people along with migrant workers, etc. will significantly weigh down that data making it suggestive that gap is extreme. The gap exists, no doubt, but until you can account for the people who actually put in the effort to succeed outside of college vs. those that really didn’t, it’s really hard to make a decisive account of what the real impact of it is.
I’m not sure I understand your point here.
My argument is simple:
1. It is very hard to live a better life than your parents in this country, as compared to both historical US data and current world data.
2. This is bad.
3. The best jobs tend to go to people with college degrees.
4. Making it easier for people to obtain college degrees without relying on the parents will make it easier for people who are born into poor families to succeed on their own merits.
5. We should do that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I believe there are a lot of smart people who don’t apply to the UC system – or even the CSU system – because they cannot afford to go. I believe this is a problem, and one that could be addressed by reducing the cost of the UC and CSU systems. I do not believe that people who do not apply to a UC because they cannot afford to are not “people who actually put in the effort to succeed”.
oooo! Stupid lawyers. Stupid…um…broken 30 year-olds.
hey I’m not stupid.
wait. maybe I am.
Thanks, and go As.
was referring to the OTHER broken 30 year-old.
I strongly believe that smart children with poor parents should have an opportunity to succeed (including going to college). And that’s not some radical point, that’s the way things worked until the boomers started to decide that paying taxes was akin to armed robbery and dismantled education systems.
Do you not believe that?
The people who need the help most are not the poor
Mitt Romney has had a hard life. Heck, he might not even get to be president.
What is the difference between tithing and taxes?
god v government?
Yes. They should be vaporized.
They should all be destroyed.
One day, a real rain will come and wash all the scum off the street.
I went to a public school, took out a moderate amount in loans, asked my folks to help me cover the rent once, worked every summer, majored in something that people will pay for, and declined to pay any money toward post-graduate education. Tidy little formula for me, but YMMV.
Of course, that’s easier in a field where it is common to be paid to go to grad school.
Do you know whether people were still being routinely hired in your field these past couple years?
this
Somewhat unrelated, but if college financing weren’t given away like
candycrack to teenagers, you would see far fewer ethnic studies majors wondering where the fuck all the jobs are.To your question, I entered the job market in July ’09, after the downturn started. People in my field and level were getting jobs but they weren’t as well-paying nor as glamorous as they had been a few years prior. My impression is that things are similar, although – yes – not finding work is becoming more common.
Having said all that, I won’t claim that my experience was typical, which is why I put my last sentence in there (I didn’t intend for it to sound snarky).
Oh, totally understand. I’m just trying to learn from more experiences.
As to the first point, I think society would suffer in real ways if people didn’t study history, [blank] studies, etc. Even though they don’t directly link to high-paying jobs.
The problem is that they don’t directly link to *any* jobs, save turning around and teaching it to others (academia). It’s not that these things are useless to study. It’s that they are useless as professions in the quantity that schools are graduating these folks.
If it were up to me (and how come nobody asks?!?), an expanded base of general knowledge courses (psych, econ, writing, business, math, science, home econ, etc.) would be required for two years. Specialized courses (accounting, engineering, law, finance, science, math, government, medicine, etc.) would round out the next 2-4 years, depending on the program, and graduates would be ready to enter the workforce (including law and medicine). The specialized courses would be purposefully geared toward professional preparation, and by design the number of anthropology degrees would be capped at a much lower number than the number of electrical engineering degrees.
Universities have been grossly derelict in preparing students for not being students.
universities derekict? or banks that are funding the students?
Both are to blame – universities and federal student loans have combined for a pretty nice predatory practice (in practice, though I doubt intent).
I think blaming federal loans for this is like blaming obscure housing laws for the MBS crash. They’re tiny in comparison to tuition.
I also fundamentally disagree that the purpose of college should be job training. It’s something school generally sucks at anyway.
If the fundamental purpose of college is not job training, then there’s no reason for the government to support four-year resorts for middle-class kids.
Only in the narrowest possible definition of “school.” It doesn’t have to be this way.
There are other options than resort and job-training. I prefer neither of those.
As to the other point, school might help for Science, I don’t know, but it sure doesn’t help with law.
Well a big part of the problem is that many of those folks thought they would go to law school but since no one has been able to get a job, law schools are experiencing a huge glut of new applicants who intern are depressing prices for first year associates and making it just not a good idea anyway.
EC bait. via Calcaterra. or other physics geek bait.
My wonder is can a layperson identify better action because of what must be a slight variation on the ball.
Interesting… can’t really form an opinion on it now, though
oh and another thing I want to to answer: do pitchers that have to wait for a long time while his/her team is batting pitch more poorly in the subsequent half inning?
I can imagine this making a difference on two fronts:
1. More consistent materials and construction of the ball lead to fewer “mistake” pitches.
2. Ball itself is not as lively.
I bet pitchf/x could help rule out #1.
Following the WPA thread … any guesses on which Athletic batter had the highest individual game WPA in 2011 and when?
DDJ in one of his multi-homer only-runs-we-scored-in-a-win games?
32nd with 24%, dominated by a score-opening 3-run homer in a 6-1 game.
If you insist on multi-homer, you can have 40th.
Pennington. I think, but am not sure, that he hit a tying and go ahead single in a game separated by a couple of innings.
8th with 43%, mostly for a game-tying bottom of the 9th bases-loaded single in what would eventually be a 7-4 win.
If you insist on game-tying and go-ahead singles, you’re SOL.
That was the game I was thinking of. I thought he was more involved in the extra innings.
Willingham would be the obvious choice, what with all the dingers. I assume it’s also incorrect.
Didn’t Sizemore have some great games when we first got him?
Willingham: 4th/46% with a go-ahead 3-run homer against the Orioles.
Sizemore: 2nd/77% with a go-ahead 3-run 9th-inning double in his 3rd game as an Athletic.
Those are better.
#1 was a very memorable game.
So, not the A’s then?
All I can think of is the matsui walkoff
Thanks, and go As.
31st/24%
That made me think of a late season game that was totally fun, But it wasn’t it.
I don’t know jack about WPA…can pitchers score well? How about Moscoso’s gem vs KC?
They can but this was specifically for hitters – for pitchers, see below.
Win Probability Added measures how much the probability of one team winning changes with each plate appearance, using historical records to determine the probability of winning in every scenario (inning, outs, baserunners). Here I’m looking at each players total WPA over the course of a game.
To get the feel of WPA consider these two scenarios:
(i) down by 1 with 2 outs and a runner on 1st in the bottom of the 9th; very low win probability (WP), so a walk-off single + 3-base error has a correspondingly high WPA.
(ii) 20 runs ahead in the 9th the WP is already so high that even a grand slam barely changes it, and has a correspondingly low WPA.
Similarly for pitchers, keeping tight games close scores much higher than cruising through a blow-out.
Found it: spoiler
Uh oh. Slusser’s gone corporate.
Oakland Athletics: Dominating the second tier!
WWIII
Best A’s pitcher single-game WPA in 2011?
Moscoso’s complete game shut-out against KC mentioned by FSU above comes in at 26th/32% … if the hitters had been true A’s that day and limited themselves to a single run it would have been much higher, but once they reached 7 the WPA for keeping the lead was negligible.
Did Trevor get a CG early in the season?
Nope; only 6 complete games this year, 5 by McCarthy – including the only win – and 1 by Anderson.
Wow, #1 edges #2 by 0.001 WPA
That has to be well within the individual WP uncertainties – I’d call it tied.
The odd thing with pitching WPA is that, provided the pitcher isn’t pulled, making a mistake and recovering from it (with no runs scored) is identical to just mowing the batters down. In these two cases both starters defended early 1-run leads for 8 innings, and any non-scoring hits, walks, errors, etc they gave up end up being irrelevant to their WPA totals.
So I guess this disqualifies the Gio game.
Oops, read it wrong.
Not at all
Good point. I wonder if it makes sense to make a weird sum, like [(WPA+)2-(WPA-)2]1/2
I guess it depends on what you’re trying to measure. In terms of the probability of winning it doesn’t really matter, and over the long haul giving up hits and walks will hurt WPA – some of them will score and the pitcher will be pulled earlier.
The 10K McCarthy CG?
7th/44% – again, lost points for the batters scoring too many too early.
Or maybe the 8-inning, 1-hit game by Gio that the A’s won 1-0 against the Marlins.
That’s technically #2/58.1%, but (as above) I think that’s rounding error and it should be #1=.
For completeness, here’s the other #1/58.2%.
Who the hell is Brett Anderson?
Anyone know anything about light field cameras? If they work as advertised, they seem very cool.
Huh. I work with a lot optical engineers, I’ll ask them.
Thanks. There’s a demo here – looks like it’s a fixed f/2 with touch screen exposure controls.
And monkeyball’s first day at work was going wonderfully, until the IT admin traced his browsing history and clicked on the Clown Porn tag…
Background research for the coulrophobia treatment pitch.
VFMW
Man, now I really wish I’d gotten my BB upgraded today.
Enhance 224 to 176.
Yay! You have a tree!
First-pitch swinging after the first 2 batters of the inning have walked?
Giving up the 1st out to move the runner from 2nd to 3rd?
and again for 12 to 23?
1) I don’t agree that this is a great world series yet. Sure games 1and 2 were fun. Game three was not and game 4 was just your average game. Maybe it will be a good series, but so far, its been just about what and 4 game sequence would be.
2) It would probably better to note the smart or not dumb things buck and McCarver say.
1) Agreed. There haven’t been a lot of big tension moments. Those are what make a series great.
2) I got nothing. Oh wait… no. Joe Buck’s voice annoys the shit of out me almost as much as McCaaaaavaaaaa…
3) I think #2 is directly impacting #1.
1. Well, just about what a four game series should be that’s tied 2-2. A 3-1 or 4-0 total to date would be less interesting, ipso facto.
The Cardinals have 37 years of pitching experience up in the pen in Dotel and Rhodes
WTF?
Why would you make wasshington walk Pujols. He was going to do it if Craig makes it or not.
Both teams are using the “take the bat out of Pujols’ hands” strategy tonight.
Yglesias bait
Could work.
Molina infield single!
Pig just flew past.
I assume that’s the work of you and your homemade backyard trebuchet.
So, has McCarver said anything about Jeter?
He won’t shut up, so no, he’s not going down on Jeter.
Which will prevail, TLR’s overuse of smallball tactics, or Wash’s overuse of the IBB?
Did I just read that Craig was caught stealing again?
He was sent (repeatedly) on 3-2, but Pujols swung at a ball and Napoli made a great play for the strike out/throw out double play.
After the first CS, they kept talking about how they thought that Pujols had called a hit-and-run himself, and were pretty matter-of-fact that some hitters regularly do this. That’s a new one on me – has anyone else heard of hitters signaling for a hit-and-run on their own?
They don’t. Look at the source.
never heard of that. I, uh… don’t think Pujols called a hit and run…
Apparently he did. Gotta love the first comment.
I have never heard of this.
7 H, 9 BB, 5 outs given away, 12 LOB.
And Dotel takes the loss.
This is a pretty good rant
Talkin’ bout my generation.
[sheds tear] That was like… beautiful, man.
Hee hee hee.
“Live and Let Die” came on the radio the other day, and as I was listening to it I began to realize that this was an absurd, ridiculous song. The only thing stranger than McCartney’s “Live and Let Die” was Axl’s classic cover.
OH man, I totally forgot that Axl wore catcher’s gear in that video.
The spandex boy short undies are a lot more offensive than catchers gear.
Thanks, and go As.
Maybe Mathis should wear spandex boy shorts to be more offensive.
Everyone should watch, just to see the chest protector look
Yeah, I’m thinking about rockin’ that at the office on a casual friday.
I’m astonished at how much TLR fucked that up.
Really one of the worst managed games I’ve ever seen.
So nobody cares about my fantasy team, but I went into tonight down by less than one with Cundiff against no one.
I can’t believe I nearly lost.
And I went into tonight down by 10 with Ray Rice and Cundiff, while my opponent had no one yet to play. I want my money back.
Down by 11 with Rice left and on one on the other side. I have the second most points in my league and with this I am now 2-5.
But my friend has it worse, lost by .5 on the last run by MJD. The one yard he got on third down before the last JAX field goal lost it for him.
I never gave a shit about fantasy football until this year. I really like Nevermoor’s 16 picks format, though. It’s a nice way to make the games more interesting without having to do a shitton(ne) of research.
Of course, the fact that both my teams are division leaders doesn’t hurt, but it would still be fun even if I wasn’t winning.
I’m glad you’re liking it. It’s a good compromise on the time/reward spectrum for me.
Mike Napoli is gonna be the WS MVP.
Traded for Vernon Wells.
Traded for Frank Francisco.
WTF.
Thanks, and go As.
Benched in the playoffs in favor of Jeff Mathis.
I gotta wonder what Jeff Mathis thinks of all that. If I were him, I wouldn’t complain, because it would be giving me a job, but he has to know he is the worst player in the majors, right?
One of the worst players of this generation.
Thanks, and go As.
So to bring this all full circle, as Napoli accepts the MVP trophy Jeff Mathis will throw a chair at him and miss badly, but Mathis will get $21 million a year through 2014 anyway. Do I have this right?
I think this time the chair hits Francisco
Thanks, and go As.
Before or after he spanks the rally monkey?
I’d be interested to hear how downtown looks, FSU.
The helicopters and flash-bombs kept us awake from about 4am onwards.
Dunno, got an email this AM saying don’t come to work until further notice.
Hope you get paid for that.
The plaza is a flattened debris field. All the tents are squished down, with the exception of the wooden accordian-style frame of the one big yurt they had, which was likely too substantial to be trompled to the ground.
Lots of barricades and cops (from several jurisdictions), hardly any protestors left around. Plaza looks like it’ll stay blocked off awhile for cleanup; I’d guess the City will take its time before unbarricading, so as to stop the protestors from reassembling tonight.
I’m ashamed that something like that happened first in California. That’s just disgusting.
Jesus. They used tear gas on non-resisting people?
There is a strange secure.freekraut embed in that URL that causes it to not work.
I had to remove the ?nclick_check=1 from the end of it.
Thanks, and go As.
Odd. It worked for me. I’ll edit the link.
Just fixed it. That happens a lot with Murky News URLs.
Yeah my understanding is there wasn’t an organized resistance to the cops anyway. I don’t get why they cant just leave them alone.
There was no way the City could keep letting the encampment go as it was. It was getting sketchier every day and especially night, proportions changed to maybe a third each Occupy protestors, homeless who relocated to the Plaza, and agitators who wanted to provike a police confrontation.
Since the group was refusing to allow regular public safety services to occur (cops prevented from responding to assault cases, paramedics prevented from responding to meidcal emergencies), the City didn’t have much choice.
They at minimum had the choice not to use tear gas and non-lethal rounds.
They could also, you know, arrest the people preventing access instead of everyone.
I was responding to DFA’s “why can’t they just leave them alone” question. I don’t tend to condone tear gas and beanbag guns, and I look forward to learning more. But a few cops wading into the mass to arrest selected Occupiers would have been a recipe for real ugliness. There’s no way any law enforcement could occur without huge amounts of backup, which of course would have provoked an Occupier reaction and a downward spiral.
Lots more info to be gathered, but my initial reaction is that the cops were effective at both clearing the encampment, which was absolutely required, without inflicting as much damage on protestors and the surrounding downtown as I thought was destined to be the case.
A lot of this is because of longstanding problems between the Oakland Community and Oakland Police though.
See, I wish that was the case, because that longstanding truth resonates with me. But I know a lot of the Oakland Copwatch and people-of-color empowerment activists, and they were frankly not a substantial part of the encampment over the past 4-5 days. That’s a big reason why things got uglier…the veteran Oakland activists know how to keep a dialog with the City going to work out things like necessary public safety. Whereas the Black Blockheads actively eschew such communication, because they want to provoke confrontation.
Most of the actual Oakland activists left after the City posted its notice Thursday.
Thats interesting. I hate the Black Block folks, they always ruin everything and have no real philosophy. I would argue that their presence in Oak instead of SF comes from their desire for police confrontation and knowing the longstanding tension, that they are more likely able to use that tension to support the violent confrontations that they desire.
You’ve convinced me to wait to hear more.
Part of Jerry’s legacy, having been the only city that would accommodate the Marines urban war-games (and the accompanying equipping and training of local police).
Remember rubber bullets and concussion grenades at the anti-war protests at the docks?
That was from a wooden dowel gun, fired at protestors at the Port of Oakland, and it was horrible, obviously.
Yup – second-scariest protest I’ve been at.
what was the first?
Thatcher visiting Cambridge during the miners’ strike.
oh wow Ive read about that
When the riot police charged us I was the slowest to react so inadvertently ended up on the front line.
fuuuuuuu
With the not-insignificant caveat that this is just what the cops are saying, but:
Should the protests/camps be allowed to continue indefinitely and become permanent tent cities/Hoovervilles?
It’s obvious that these protests aren’t going to achieve even close to enough of a critical mass to exact change a la the “Arab Spring”
Yes.
And we disagree about that. I think they’ve already had a real impact nationally.
Sure, they’ve had a slight impact on the national discourse and caused some of the rich to spend more of their disposable income on security, but that’s the majority of the impact right there.
I think you’ll see some executive-branch action (including HAMP II) you wouldn’t necessarily have seen otherwise.
Yeah, but part of that is Obama desperately trying to look effectual and presidential in a time in which Congress is pretty much going to block anything/everything he tries to do.
I’ve been looking into this today actually.
It’s perilously hard to find details about it.
Thanks, and go As.
Yeah, there’s a lot to digest in it (I’m told) so I wouldn’t trust reactions from yesterday, or perhaps even today.
So far all I’ve found is that less than 900,000 people refinanced last time, and all they really did was change a few of the terms to meet the refi requirements.
Also one of the links I saw said that it would be considered “success” if 800,000 more refis happened.
Thanks, and go As.
I don’t pretend to understand the policy completely. The early reviews (which, as I said, are likely incomplete) range from small positive to big positive.
I originally thought “Hamp II” was the follow-up album to Hampton Grease Band’s “Music To Eat”
but I have since learned differently.
I’m sure HAMP II was just what they were after.
It is certainly part of it. It’s (at minimum) a transfer of billions from banks to underwater homeowners. Do you honestly think that high, unrefinanceable home loans are no part of what’s motivating the OWS movement?
I didn’t think they were looking for massive transfers to the home-owning class.
Access to a realistic mortgage despite being underwater? Why not?
Because the demographic of the demographic of OWS protestors did not scream, “we are underwater on our mortgages.” It screamed “we are drowning in student debt,” “we need to tax the rich to fund entitlement programs,” etc.
Many, most, of the campers don’t have mortgages.
Many, most of the people who sympathize/identify/support do
This. OWS is not just the people squatting in public parks.
Yeah, but people squatting in public parks is what the a lot of people think it is, and it’s the most visual element of the protests, or at least it was until the Oakland PD lost their heads.
If I had to point to one thing it “is” I would point to this. And if anyone can read that and not see how mortgage restructuring is an (admittedly insufficient/incomplete) answer to that…
not entitlement programs, social safety nets.
the more that our tech makes us obsolete, the more that the social safety net becomes SkyNet.
But long before that, Siri and e-discovery software will make most of the lawyers obsolete, and everybody know that masses of unemployed barristers would turn into a mass of zombies before long.
We’re FK’d.
Potayto, potahto.
Does anyone actually say po-tah-to?
Conservatives.
I guess that would explain why I personally have never herd it uttered that way.
Nope. Safety nets.
I don’t know about indefinitely. Oakland’s reasons for stopping the encampment were safety and sanitation, if I remember correctly. Those would indeed be legitimate reasons in light of the upcoming winter. Barring a mass vaccination campaign, those places would indeed be dangerous vectors of disease, such as flu, which would obviously be detrimental to both protestors and ordinary citizens.
I’m in the uniquely local context of “Occupy Sacramento,” which seems mostly about overturning the local anti-camping ordinance so that homeless people can have a legal place to sleep… whether that’s individually in public parks or collectively in a sanctioned Hooverville doesn’t much seem to matter, at least to them.
I read an article in Harpers 6 or 9 months ago about the battles over Sacto’s anti-camping laws.
Yes, and apparently the Occupation greatly exacerbated the already existing rat problem in the plaza (and no, not the rats in suits).
Hey, man, like, the rats have, like, just as much right to be here as, like, we do, man.
Geoengineering is hard
Hey guys,
sorry for not posting much lately and making an impression I only come around when I write something. This isn’t much different – I’m preparing a big article on European baseball and have some questions for you:
1. Are you, as baseball fans you are, interested in knowing more about baseball in Europe?
2. Do you know anything yet?
3. Are there any specific aspects about it that you would like to know more about?
We know you’re a very busy person, and I (speaking for myself, but probably most everyone else too) enjoy your presence whenever you have the time to drop by.
1. I am definitely interested in knowing more about baseball in Europe
2. About 30% of what I know about baseball in Europe I’ve learned from you over the last few years
3. the weird nonconformist types who are drawn to an outsider’s game
1 Yes
2 Loek Von Mill
3 Teams international presence there, blood feuds
1. Yes
2. I saw part of a documentary on an Irish team. I know what you have posted. and I hear there is this kid from the netherlands, “Dan Haren” who is supposed to be good.
3. Who makes the fields, how does one start to play in Europe
Also, I am obviously not up-to-date and I will never make it through unread comments. What’s with monkeyball and the new view from the office?
New job started yesterday (after 7 years at previous agency).
I hope by choice, in which case I say congrats, buddy!
Oh yes. Thank you.
And, St. Jobs be praised, it’s a Mac shop.
is it a kinkos?
New Sign Man!
.
a small, square two-dimensional planet?
A suspicious dot.
You oughta get that examined.
Looks like we’re in for a long, noisy night.
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/livenow?id=8405688
… which is why it’s so FKing noisy!
If a protest goes down Broadway and there’s no helicopters above to cover it, does it really make a sound?
It has suddenly gone quiet; checking the link above it’s because they’re refueling the chopper :-(
And the twitter feeds are saying that, absent choppers, the tear-gas has come out again.
They’re all back at the Plaza:
I can hear a chopper returning.
seems to be staying in the distance.
abc back up online
being tear gassed is no fun, but its nothing of which to be terrified.
Depends how the canisters are projected – looks like someone got knocked unconscious.
that’s messed up
Does that depend on what you’re doing at the time? If you’re flying a helicopter, for instance, I think it would be appropriate to be at least moderately afeared.
My sense from the various feeds and tweets is that the tear gas dispersed the main crowd into a smaller bands. Hopefully that’s not the way this turns into more of the Mehserle riot type of vandalism (which does not appear to have been much in evidence from the Occupiers, a little spray paint aside.
As tactically reasonable as the police eviction plan may have been, their protest response plan tonight veyr poorly conceived. And what exactly does a sound cannon do?
Video of the tear-gassing.
If I had to guess, I’d guess a sound cannon sends out heavy sound waves meant to disorient folk.
Mostly close. But damn, death by sound?
Though they’re more likely using this.
Just crank up the Metallica.
Ministry. much more offensive than Metallica.
Thanks, and go As.
Ministry rocks, but if I’m going for offensive, I’m gonna stick with Cannibal Corpse, tyvm.
Chimaira. Pure Hatred.
Thanks, and go As.
St Winifred’s School Choir at 150 dB.
Back in the day, when Hookslide was a youthful, spritely a cappella group, we rented a rehearsal space from some dude named Sleiz. But even though we were (and are) loud for an a cappella group, we were easily drowned out by the band next door.
One day, their noise was so overwhelming that we decided to go over and ask them to turn it down.
Knock knock knock.
< door opens >
“Hi, we’re Hookslide, next door.”
“Hey.”
“Great sound, what are you guys called?”
“Satanica.”
“Uh…cool. Well, could you turn your sound down a notch?”
“No.”
“OK, thanks.”
Say what you will about playing your Satanic music loud, at least it’s an ethos.
Did I give you one of my CD’s at ** day last year?
Some of my lyrics are pretty FK’d up… much worse than most metal… and they’re very clear and audible too.
One of my more recent songs is called “Snuff Film Chase Scene” and it starts out with
“Excuse me… umm… since you’re dying anyway, you mind if I make a snuff film? It’ll pay for your funeral expenses so your kids don’t have to”
I’m not a Metallica fan…I shut the door on metal in an earlier day, retaining a nostalgic appreciation of Black Sabbath and Judas Priest and eschewing most everything that came after. But I do like genre-blending (Judgement Night soundtrack FTW!), and I enjoyed this Klosterman review of the new Lou Reed and Metallica album Lulu. For stuff like this:
and
All this said, in all likelihood I’ll never listen to Lulu. I listened to Metal Machine Music; once was more than enough.
Wow. Mark McGwire’s lost A LOT of muscle since he quit juicing…
…oh, wait…
Better version:
Heh
You seriously listened to MMM all the way through? All four sides?
How high were you?
I was working a a record shop.DOubt I was high. May have been drinking.
Ack! I think perhaps drinking might exacerbate it…
Does not compute.
OK, no, in all fairness it was probably just side 1 all the way through, then enough samples of the rest to be reasonably sure that Lou didn’t actually sneak in something listenable.
He did not. I did actually make sure, too.
And I still can’t tell whether he was joking or not. He may have been too high to know if he was or not.
I’ve always been partial to the theory that it was a Fuck You to RCA to fulfill his record contract obligation, but he claims that’s not the case.
Still maintains it was groundbreaking.
…and apparently edits his own wikipedia entry.
I could see that. Once you stop shooting smack, life gets…a little boring.
I didn;t realize the ending had an endless loop and listened to the whole thing a half an hour longer than I had to.
The “Loaded” album was probably the most commercial thing that Lou Reed ever wrote. And thank god, because it’s a good album.
I like New York quite a bit, too.
New york’s alright. If you like saxophones
love you.
Side 1 of New York is one of the best album sides ever.
Side 2 is kinda boring.
Somewhere, DFA wonders “what the fuck is an album side?”
psht we brought vinyl back from the dead old man
I really don’t understand hipsters…you stole an LP from a deceased elderly dude?
pretty much
This is the problem. They get off on doing things just to make the rest of us not understand.
I am neither deceased, nor elderly. I barely have a CD player (car, and just bought one for the kids room to play this as they sleep).
I have never bought music online.
This is another good one.
Drowns out McCarver?
Heh. I’ll take a dozen.
Double this order, please.
There may be a wait – TLR has been buying them up to aim at the visitors’ bullpen phone tomorrow night.