Josh Donaldson is going to Torronto according to Ken Rosenthal (Linky links). Infielder Brett Lawrie, righty Kendall Graveman, and shortstop Franklin Barreto are part of the package going back. Prospect Sean Nolin is also in the deal (Jeff Passan)
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor353 thoughts on “FML Donaldson to TOR”
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Sorry DFA. You two had a good run.
It’s so funny when everybody acts like the sky is falling each time Billy makes a deal.
Thanks, and go As.
Because yet again this is a shitty deal that shows that the A’s have absolutely no direction
Baretto is the best spec here and wont be ready for at least two years.
Why are we spending $30 mil on Billy Fucking Country Breakfast if we can’t afford Josh Donaldson, one of the top 5 players in the AL. We aren’t a playoff team without him and with injury prone Brett Lawrie.
We have half a starting of and a grand total of 0 MINF and our corner INF are all hurt. And you are trading Donaldson for crap. Why?
Are you trying to contend? Because this is a bad trade if you are trying to contend.
ARe you trying to rebuild? Because this is a bad trade if you are trying to rebuild.
Grover, Im sorry, can we please have your CLE deal instead of this piece of shit?
OK.
Thanks, and go As.
I’m sorry, I went off line and had a quiet evening with my wife.
I blame you.
That’s fair.
But I’ll always wonder if Cleveland wouldn’t have been a better trade fit…
It’s less funny when you realize the sky did fall after his last two big deals.
Lester: 1.6 WAR w/ Oakland
Cespy: 1.2 WAR / Bosox
The Shark deal wasn’t very good.
Thanks, and go As.
The sky undeniably fell. It just wasn’t Lester’s fault.
So a wash and the value lost from one year of Cespedes, and a bad deal that lead to an even worse deal.
Billy goes for it: OMG WHAT IS HE DOING?!?!?!
Billy cashes in on a player: OMG WHAT IS HE DOING?!?!?!?!
Yet the team keeps winning games and winning games.
I tend to go ahead and put my faith in the guy running the team. That’s just me though I guess. On paper there is nothing at all wrong with this deal.
Thanks, and go As.
I don’t care whether you like or dislike this deal, just as I care very little about what you think about most things in general. You’re free to express whatever opinion you wish.
But if you’re going to pull out the holier than thou, “complete faith in Billy Beane” card, you’ve basically placed yourself in no position to ever critique the team’s actions.
That’s fine, and a noble position that you must have adopted quite recently, cause I distinctly remember continuous bitching about the Hanley non trade for about two years now, and a more recent example.
I’m trying to understand what in the actual fuck you are trying to say, but I can’t. But, uh, I guess thanks for telling me you don’t care what I say by replying to what I say in order to say it.
Fuck, you’re like the only person that makes me wish this site had an ignore feature.
Thanks, and go As.
It’s not too hard. If you’re going to yell at other people for not having complete trust in Billy Beane, perhaps don’t do it when just a thread ago you said signing Billy Butler was a “fireable offense”.
Just a thought. But yes, I agree that us interacting more has no further value.
I’ve thought that for awhile, and yet here you are continuing to respond to me.
Thanks, and go As.
The problem with this is that there was a replacement differential
Cespy -> Gomes ~ 1.5 WAR
Chavez -> Lester ~ 1 WAR
Plus we gave up international slot money and a 2.5 WAR player next year.
It was a bad trade. Did it sink the team? no but it wasn’t a deal you should make again.
and yet the guy we acquired left the 8th inning of the playoff game with the lead. Exactly what he was supposed to do.
Thanks, and go As.
So what you are saying is giving up 7.36 ERA in a play in playoff game is what Lester was suppose to do? LOL
How about you have a coherent argument. I love you dude, but Beane Wolff and Fisher have plenty of warts. You complain about a lot of them.
This trade is the worst thing I can remember as an A’s fan up there with the Holiday trade.
You wanna pidgeonhole it like that, fine. Lester was better than Cespedes was after the trade and with half the team falling apart he was a big reason they still made the playoffs. It was an all-in move and it almost worked. Oh well, move on. Regardless, if Doolittle doesn’t blow a save they beat the Royals and the Lester narrative is different.
and you’re right. I DO complain about moves that Beane makes. Butler is one of them because it was stupid. Complaining about a trade when it’s made — especially a Beane trade — is pretty bad. Hell, Donaldson was a throw in for Rich Harden.
Everything you don’t like is the worst thing Billy has ever done.
Thanks, and go As.
Billy hasn’t had a superstar caliber player in a decade.
And so he traded the only one hes had for literally a guy who is hurt all the time, a #4 starter, a reliever, and a semi promising MINF.
How does that fix any problems. There literally is no logic to this trade. It doesn’t make anything better. There isn’t one hole that is filled. It makes no sense.
MINF. Heh.
This isn’t fair. Berrato is a good spec and I undersell him above.
Also, Lawrie is a 2B/3B.
I’ve heard we might be in the running on Headley now, fwiw
2bman in name only.
Lowrie could never play 2b well which is why they moved him to 3b in TOR. Could he play there? Probably, but he would be giving up defensive value. UZR/150 has him at -10 at 2b.
I always thought they moved him because there were other guys there like Hill and Johnson. That -10 is over 240 innings and dragged down by a -50 UZR/150 in 50 innings in 2013.
He seems athletic enough. I imagine he could probably handle the switch.
Although apparently Lawrie has made it known he doesn’t want to switch back to 2B, so who knows. I’ll never understand players that throw fits about their defensive position, with the exception of asking a pitcher to catch, which doesn’t happen.
At the end of the day two Organizations gave up on him playing 2b and he has attitude issues and doesn’t want to play there to boot. Sounds like a recipe for success no?
The way things played out, Cespedes for Lester might have been a better deal for the A’s than Cespedes for Lester + Gomes was.
also it was international slot money + Cespedes for Gomes and Lester. Which is like trading a C+ prospect with upside.
Sell high.
do you think this package qualifies as selling high?
I think there’s a reasonable argument that it’s selling high and buying low. Donaldson’s headcase issue is part of what happened in the second half of the season. Lawrie is a guy with a ton of talent just about to hit his peak years. That said, he’s had terrible health problems.
You are giving up the 2nd best player in the AL the last two years. You shouldn’t be asking yourself if his health pans out this could be an ok trade. Basically for this to be worth it the A’s need either Barretto or Lawrie to be an MVP quality player. Barretto if you squint could be an allstar type, but the defensive questions and that he is 5’9″ really limit the ability to dream on more. Lawrie has literally be hurt nonstop for 6 years. I have no idea why that would change.
I hear you. The health report card is awful, and that suggests it will stay awful. If it does, he’s a dumb pickup.
I’m not saying I like the deal, I’m just not as pissed off as you are (at least yet). I’m surprised that this was a godfather deal for Beane though.
what do you mean by godfather?
They made him an offer he couldn’t refuse.
Maybe Beane will introduce Barreto at some point with, “Say hello to my little friend!”
Different movie, but whatever.
It’s not personal; it’s just business.
Who put this thing together? Beane, thass who!
a visually stunning and aptly acted adaptation of a pop novel of very little weight apart from that garnered by page count, that francis ford beane will try to replicate 2 years later without the main star, relying on a makeshift lineup ranging from heavy hitters to family members, to disastrous results.
5 years later, the star will come back to work with ford beane on a rather deep and even more difficult and ambitious campaign, but he’ll be utterly overweight and won’t know his lines, so 3/4’s through the season we’ll see an edit of his best impromptu moments toward something that can be considered successful, but will ultimately be left open with 3 possible endings, two of them contradictory, but in all of them JD dies. sure, with his boots on, but still dead.
Perhaps I’m being too literal, but are you conflating GF pt. 2 with GF pt. 3?
dar. yes.
my only excuse is that all these details have blended together ever since i stopped paying attention to baseball.
Yeah. I got halfway through and thought you were trashing GF2. Which would be lunacy.
Killing off Marlon Brando’s character only to recast the same character with top prospect Bob DeNiro and going on to win the division (Best Picture) again is a very Beane-esque move.
yeah, Bobby had a great year with the New York Mammoths in ’73. really poised for a breakout in ’74
One of the best TEGWAR players I’ve seen.
Wasn’t that Shatner’s series?
Almost.
Interesting that you bring up the Shat. TEGWAR is actually a lot like Fizbin.
Jesus Christ, Spock. Let Kirk cook.
Every time they do a new Star Trek movie they have to be about stealing ships and super weapons and Khan. I always pray they do something like this or City on the Edge of Forever instead. Get the boys into some fun.
…!
And by “part of what happened in the second half”, you mean pretty much singehandedly carrying a corpse of a team with a .280/.379/.465 line (144 OPS+)?
No. I mean the guy who went .233/.307/.379 in September/October (.297 wOBA).
Well ok, that’s still a 99 OPS+. Didn’t know “second half” meant one month but whatever.
91 wRC+ Not sure why we’re talking about OPS+ (though I’m surprised a line that ugly rates that well).
If it makes you happier, I’ll amend “what happened in the second half” to “what happened down the stretch”.
What would make me happy is if we didn’t retroactively nitpick or make players out to be worse than they are after a trade, or pointlessly assign blame to them for something they weren’t responsible for.
I understand it’s a coping mechanism especially after a bad trade, and I’m not trying to single you out, because we all do this including me. But it irritated me after the Cespedes trade and I don’t like seeing it here.
Donaldson was and still is a great player. I don’t think he’s a headcase because he was down like 20th on the list of reasons why the second half went so poorly.
Not retroactive. You certainly thought so in his summer funk. And we talked about him being one of the problems in real time.
I understand your point, but it cuts both ways. People we trade also often become the perfect player.
If you dig more, I’m sure you can find lots of stupid stuff I said in snap judgment during Game Threads months ago.
But stepping back a bit, psychoanalyzing players from afar is just one reason I found Toonces so unbearable back in the AN days.
I think he’s definitely a headcase. He’s just a very good player despite also being a headcase. It’s more a case of imagining just how great he could be if he weren’t one given how great he is now as one.
Blanks and Lindblom DFA
OMG FUCK THIS DEAL NOW I HATE BILLY HOW CAN HE DO THAT RABBLE RABBLE
Thanks, and go As.
OK.
Who are these strawmen that you are beating the shit out of right now?
I’ve seen at least a dozen folks on FB doing the whole “FK WOLFF BEANE AND FISHER” screed. Just like what happens after every trade of fairly popular players.
That’s how people on Facebook are about everything.
i mean they destroyed our chance at winning this year and got almost nothing in return.
LOL
Look, the A’s traded their best player since Tejada and didn’t get a top 100 spec.
Lawrie is hurt and has never played more than 135 games at any level of baseball, and has been a below average player for the last 2 years.
1.7 WAR in 70 games is below average? Huh.
Thanks, and go As.
Absolutely. If you can only play 70 games, your value is limited.
Brett Lawrie has never had a healthy season since he was drafted. Period. He has played more than 135 games all of 0 times.
HEALTH IS A MOTHER FUCKING SKILL BILLY
If you can’t stay healthy you have little value in my mind.
Baseball value bed, Im not trying to soylent green anyone
At least it’s just an oblique problem. The A’s have plenty of experience with that.
Thanks, and go As.
Now this has to be a joke, right??
It was. It was reeking of his sarcasm.
Interesting…I got more of a nutmeg smell.
That was me farting.
soft tissue injuries compound.
and it wasn’t just the oblique.
but you should love this you’re in favor of selling every player every year so we can get specs and compete 3 years from now.
Thanks, and go As.
If you make this trade you do it for this package:
Norris, Stroman Pompey and Barretto
and you fucking sell everyone else.
It’s truly inexplicable that they didn’t even manage to get one of Norris, Stroman, or Pompey.
I understand their instinct anyway. It sucks to root for a team that does this all the time, even if they’re successful at it. What I don’t get is when people accuse Beane of not wanting to win. That’s crazy.
This is the sort of deal I’d be okay with if it happened next year. It’s kind of the peak I can see us getting for Donaldson, not that he isn’t worth more, but that other teams aren’t going to really offer more. It’s a major reason why I’d have much much preferred waiting a year on him. It was really an unnecessary move at this point.
This hurts a lot more than any other deal I remember. I just don’t see the point in making this deal. We had Donaldson for 4 more years! And we got rid of the single hardest commodity for the A’s to get (a superstar hitter) for this deal?
Well we all knew he wouldn’t be around for 4 more years. It was all but guaranteed that he’d be gone sooner than later. Just not necessarily this year and for this.
Lawrie is a FA before Donaldson! 2-3 years from now? Maybe I’d understand. But now?!
Lawrie is also 25, not 29. He’s a guy that it would actually be worth signing for 5 years.
Thanks, and go As.
Except that he hasn’t been able to stay healthy.
Is the injury nexus thing just for pitchers or field players too?
Thanks, and go As.
what does this even mean?
players who have a history of being hurt are more likely to be hurt.
and once pitchers get past a certain age they’re less likely. am I wrong or am I thinking of something else?
Thanks, and go As.
right. thats only for pitchers.
I’m not terribly hung up on that part since I’d expect neither to finish out their arby with the A’s. To me it’s just value for value and it’s basically a fail on that level. It was just the wrong time to make this move period.
The case for this trade would have to be:
-The actuarial tables tell them that Donaldson can’t stay this healthy and good for long.
-They think Lawrie’s injuries are not chronic.
-They really like hitters with pedigree who are entering the second half of their twenties.
-Lawrie has some positional flexibility.
-The pitching they got back lets them flip one of Shark or Kazmir for a shortstop.
-They got a hotshot middle infield prospect.
Re. 1 and 2, it’s also worth noting that Lawrie has been playing on Toronto’s awful turf (and Donaldson hasn’t).
Barreto has an interesting bat, but there are questions about him sticking at middle infield. He can save this deal, but there’s just too much that has to go right before he starts contributing value.
Does he struggle to field his position?
There are legitimate questions about his ability to stick there as he gets older. Good but not great bat.
And I imagine if he’s just a good bat for a MI then his value as a player decreases if he has to move to a more offensive orientated position.
Yup, right on sirbed… pretty soon youll be explaining VORP everywhere you go!
I’ll finally have something interesting to say at parties.
He had the 11th highest OPS in the Northwest League, and all the players above him were older, most of them by 3 or 4 years.
He’s definitely a good prospect. Someone we would get excited about in pretty much any other situation.
I do think the turf thing is a big deal. Not big enough to have that much of an effect on the deal. But I suspect Donaldson suffers the first few years with Toronto (at least until they finally install the grass in at Sky Dome).
Lawrie has had oblique injuries put him on the DL in 2012 and 2014. He had a ribcage strain put him on the DL to start 2013. Metacarpal fracture in his left hand in 2011. Fractures to the middle (2011) and index (2014) fingers on his right hand. He also sprained his ankle pretty bad in 2013.
All these injuries put him on at least the 15 day DL. I’m worried about three consecutive years of torso injuries putting him on the DL.
But more than that… his bat is kinda meh.
I get Barreto and Nolin. Graveman is the kind of 4th piece the A’s tend to target. Lawrie is the mystery to me. He’s obviously too important to be considered a throw-in but I don’t get spending the trade currency to acquire him.
Do you like Nolin though?
Just today I said to myself I was bored with the lack of hot stove.
I think Nolin’s ceiling is a #3. What worries me is he’s missed significant time due to groin strains the last two years.
Toronto couldn’t deal Pompey after shipping off Gose. I think Beane burned up too much coin acquiring Lawrie; this prevented him from landing Norris or Stroman. Barreto’s got a ways to go but he’s certainly a solid #2 piece in a deal of this magnitude. I think the order goes: Lawrie/Barreto/Nolin/Graveman. Beane prefers to NOT tear everything down thus Lawrie instead of Norris or Stroman.
It seems like big A’s trades go from rumor to consummated in like 10 minutes. Am I just imagining that other teams’ deals seem to leak much earlier?
Probably.
So Blah Blah Blah we just decided fuck it.
It’s true that the A’s just squeaked into the playoffs (and then got knocked off in the WC game), but they suffered from some really bad luck compared to their Pythagorean record. Angels are tough to compete with, but I was really hoping for at least one more year in this contention window.
THEN WHY THE FUCK DID WE SPEND 30 MIOLLION ON BILLY FUCKING BUTLER?
That’s what I don’t get. It’s like there’s two people driving this bus. One rebuilding and one not. And they’re acting without talking. Pick a direction and stick to it, don’t go bi-polar.
Because he hits lefties. Beane’s not rebuilding. He’s doing something else.
I’d be surprised if Beane doesn’t have a plan…we’ll see if it works but I do think he’s a guy who thinks things out.
This gets us nowhere in trying to contend.
in 2015 that’s probably right (only way is if we get another great 3b and Lawrie is an upgrade over Punto)
I enjoyed watching Donaldson hit but that’s life for an A’s fan…no one stays for long. It does make it difficult to form an attachment to the team.
I think everyone is missing the point here. Beane just turned Rich Harden into Brett Lawrie plus some other stuff!
Shut up, Tounces.
You wound me.
I just assume Rich Harden is dead at this point.
Dead sexy, as always.
So close to having a Lawrie/Lowrie left side. It’s not too late, Billy! You can finally break Fosse’s brain!!
If he picks the same number, you could get a Lowrie uniform and quickly turn it into a Lawrie uniform.
green lowrie yellow lawrie.
So who the fuck plays third next year?
Lawrie. Unless they’re about to sign Chase Headley.
Headley makes a ton of sense now. Lots of injury risk but he has a nice Steamer projection assuming health.
If we’re going to assume this much risk, might as well go all the way.
Why would we assume health for either Headley or Lawrie?
I’m not. Steamer is.
Headley would be an interesting addition. No QO to deal with. A 4 year deal probably lands the guy.
Yep. One way this makes sense is if Beane strongly believes Headley is undervalued.
why would we give 90m to Butler and Headley when we could have just given it to Donaldson who is better and healthier than both?
Butler is a stupid waste of money. Doesn’t reflect on Headley either way
I don’t particularly like the Butler signing but I won’t go so far as calling it a waste of money. Those dollars won’t impact Oakland’s ability to sign a FA SS if they choose to go that route or to take on a contract like Rollins via trade.
I get you’re pissed but think that through.
I don’t like this trade because Lawrie doesn’t stay healthy. However, in theory, trading Donaldson for cheap talent plus adding Butler and Headley could offer Oakland more value than signing Donaldson to a comparable dollar figure.
Josh Donaldson Steamer this year and then -.5 WAR for aging
2015 29 5.6 WAR
2016 30 5.1 WAR
2017 31 4.6 WAR
2017 32 4.1 WAR
Total 15.4 WAR
Chase Headly
2015 30 3.9
2016 31 3.4
2017 32 2.9
2018 33 2.4
Total 12.6
Billy Butler
2015 28 1.3
2016 29 0.8
2017 30 0.3
Total 2.4 WAR
So less than Donaldson.
Seager got 100/7 with an option for 120 for 8. 100 mil definitely buys Donaldson for 6 considering that its likely his best last payday.
Headly is going to cost atleast 4/60 is older and worse than Donaldson and has an extremely troubling back injury in addition to having broken his hand sliding and has needed knee surgery. As he is older and more hurt there is more downside in him than Donaldson.
Butler is basically a complete and utter waste of money. He also blocks Olsen, who should be ready after next season, and is basically a $20 mil anvil.
You completely ignored the part about factoring the young talent the A’s got back for Donaldson.
Olsen might be ready by 2016 but Butler isn’t so big he’ll need to take up both the DH and 1B spots in the line-up.
Barreto is likely to be a surplus value in the 10 Mil range
Nolin is likely in the 7 mil range. Graveman is less than that.
So you are looking at an additional 20 Mil of value
Lawrie is projected at 3 WAR if he plays 110 games, which is generous considering hes averaged 100 since his first full big league year. He is likely tost an additional $20m if he plays like he is projected, so you consuming your prospect value above for this amalgamation of misfit children. And you are likely to come out 6 WAR ahead.
However, you are severely under valuing that Butlers downside, and Headley and Lowrie’s injury histories and WAR concentration if this is a move you make.
An additional 10 games while no longer playing on turf seems reasonable.
Butler has upside too. He’s only ever had 1 year worse than his projection and that was last year. Granted he isn’t one who will age gracefully but he is the right side of 30.
I am over my head in these type of conversations, but is $10M a year really an anvil?
Yes if you are a small market team. It means Butler is going to play.
Craig Paquette
That’s my dream.
mine is crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor… and surviving.
basically why i’m up so early on a saturday.
If Reggie McKenzie had made this trade at least one of these players would be a quarterback named Matt.
and one of the players would have some sort of heart condition.
finally…FSU and I would disagree about the trade but we’d be cool with that.
And the A’s would start the season with a 100-game losing streak.
But…but…he would have cleared the salary cap or something so he’s a supergenius.
I don’t think he was a genius bu the raiders were a steaming pile when he got them. Now they are a steaming pile not in cap hell. Thats progress.
9-35 is not progress. This is the least talented, and oldest, roster in the NFL.
Year 1: Shitty team in cap hell.
Year 2: Shitty team out of cap hell.
Year 3: We were supposed to see some progression. Instead we get a 0-10 start. FK you Reggie.
EXACTLY…this was supposed to be the year they competed and they’re worse than ever.
Also, I’m drunk.
I’m drunk with hate.
Giving up first and second round draft picks for carson palmer isn’t progress either.
Fair enough. The Raiders have been a dumpster fire since losing the Super Bowl. I’m just really sick of it and I haven’t liked most of McKenzie’s moves. I just think they can do better at GM. If he comes back I’ll be rooting for him though.
Hmm…I think I hate McKenzie as much as I hate Mike Shanahan…ah, sports hate…fill my soul.
yes…feel the hate.
5Aces…you’re the best.
The guy I want to see moved is Doolittle…he makes me nervous. I just don’t trust him. I imagine that’s not exactly sound logic to move someone but I’m only logical in the real world.
Doolittle is signed to a super cheap deal that the A’s got in place before he became a full time closer this season. Even if you want someone else to take over the 9th inning, Doolittle is inexpensive enough to keep around as an 8th inning relief ace.
Yeah, Doolittle’s a guy that probably has as much trade value now as he will in 2017.
Man, Donaldson’s knee or whatever issue he has there and back on that turf. Yikes.
That turf is fucking travesty. There’s no reason they can’t have a decent playing surface in that thing.
Those fuckin’ Canadians.
They’re in the process of adding grass. The team now has full control over the stadium and they’re trying to figure out what grass hybrid will work, now to keep it green, and grow the huge amount they’ll need to cover the field. Supposedly in about 2 years it’ll be grass.
I guess the start date for that is actually 2018.
Donaldson’s averaged 7 WAR over the last two seasons. So we’re in the position of hoping that Lawrie stays healthy and puts up 4 WAR, Nolin and Graveman step right in and become league average 2 WAR pitchers, the A’s could sort of get back to where they were with 8 WAR spread over 3 roster spots.
And if Brett Anderson could just make 30 starts…and Barton should be back to 5 WAR form any day now….
Harden is throwing from 180 feet and will be on the mound next week barring setbacks.
Shit. He’s hurt again already. He tore his rotator cuff putting his glove on.
No worries. I hear Buck is getting close to 100%.
I probably should not quote projection systems without knowing better what goes into them, but I see that Steamer projects there to only be a 1.8 WAR differential between Lawrie and Donaldson in 2015.
It also projects Lawrie to play more games than he ever has.
Yes, that would be Lawrie staying healthy and approaching 4 WAR. Steamer is projecting Lawrie for the most number of games played/at bats he’s ever had in the majors.
Local sports writer in CHI… probably not real but who would we want?
Hawk Harrelson
Has the hot stove always been this flooded with no-names and their “sources”? Twitter as made this offseason very strange.
Just another reason why @freekraut needs to happen. The people need someone they can trust for breaking A’s news.
Jose Abreu would be a nice addition.
My worry is it’s Alexei Ramirez.
They can’t trade Rodon. Their best (per BA) tradeable prospect is Tim Anderson but he only took 7 walks in 330+ PA.
My guess is if the A’s deal Shark to the White Sox we’ll hate the return.
I suspect this might be my last year of strongly caring about the A’s.
Even with those numbers, Anderson is really interesting. He has Adam Jones-but-as-a-shortstop upside.
You’d trade Samardzija for Anderson?
Probably not straight up, but yeah. There are a few White Sox prospects I like, with Anderson, Bassitt, Johnson, Montas, Danish, Ravelo among them. Anderson is a really raw prospect that’s been pushed very aggressively by Chicago, and he’s responded well. Honestly he’s the type of prospect(s) I’d have wanted coming back for Donaldson.
Ramirez and Anderson for Samardzija?
That’d tickle my tummy. I’m not really big on Alexei, but he certainly fills a need.
I’d actually expect Chicago to decline on that one.
I agree he’s interesting. But I’d like to see more patience before buying.
Barreto for Anderson?
Hell no. Not into prospects for prospects at this time.
If he shows patience, he probably becomes one of those untouchable Correa/Russell/Crawford type SS prospect.
Then he ends up as untouchable as Russell was last July.
MLB has already updated our prospect list
1 Robertson
2 Olsen
3 Barreto
4 Nunez
5 Chapman
6 Overton
7 Pinder
8 Alacantra
9 Nolin
Fuck we have a shitty system and we didn’t even get two top 5 specs for our system… uggg.
This might be the last straw.
Don’t worry. It’ll change by tomorrow.
Slussbeat
Barreto:
Lawrie:
Graveman/Nolin:
Thanks for this.
That Lawrie update….uhff
Shark would be interesting but Atlanta’s been asking for cost-controlled pitching… guys like Nolin or Graveman.
Atlanta would really trade Upton and Gattis for Nolin and Graveman? We’d probably have to throw in Norris.
Not and… either Gattis or Upton.
Either Gattis or Upton for Graveman and Nolin seems like a great deal for Oakland.
So both would be a really, really great deal?
He would have been such a strange landing spot for them anyway. I didn’t understand why they’d want to trade all their OF for all the SP.
What is everyone’s favorite JD memory?
I am going with the double off Valverde in the game four.
The home-run off Britton was pretty sick as well.
The game tying 2 run homer off Wilhemson near the end of 2012, accompanied by a great Korach call.
This.
this one
Definitely the double off Valverde in 2012.
That sequence of hits makes me tear up every time.
Me too.
Jeff just speculating here?
Thanks, and go As.
He’s just reading FreeKraut.net. You heard it here first. Literally.
such a hack. him and grant.
Thanks, and go As.
Maybe.
The Fangraphs article focusing on the Toronto side of the deal states that per AA this deal didn’t get rolling until Lawrie was included.
I thought people weren’t allowed to talk about stuff that happens in AA.
Most of my Athletics Anonymous meetings are just me yelling that it’s actually yellow not gold. Then we drink coffee and smoke a lot.
@BedonBaseball
My sources tell me that the A’s will make a trade within the next 13 and a half minutes for a player I’ve never heard of…I will also somehow turn talk of this trade into how much I hate Reggie McKenzie.
I don’t know if the A’s will contend in 2015. All I really want is for them to win one more game than the Angels.
I would totally settle for the Angels and Red Sox having shitty seasons. Can we get 5Aces to post that emperor pic again?
Give in to your anger.
In Old Soviet Union, complaints tweet YOU.
Well, that sucks.
I need my midnight hours to go better than this one.
This is too much to read and absorb on a plane. Can I just assume we’re in the process of assembling the 2015 World Series championship roster and FK has achieved consensus that we’re delighted?
Except for bed who blames Reggie McKenzie.
My logic is sound…I also blame McKenzie for global warming and the Kardashians.
I told you to stay away!
Yeah, I don’t like to get texts while on 5 in the rain and have to read twitter while driving.
OT… what’s the best ground cover for an outdoor dog run? The portion I need to cover is about 10′ X 20′ and needs to provide for a German Shepard and a Lab.
my mom uses field turf for hers, its way smaller with less active Great Dane/St Bernard, but it does a good job of not smelling like piss.
Thanks.
I had good luck with quarter-by-dust. It’s fine enough and compacts down that it’s not quite like gravel but it doesn’t track around on paws like dirt.
Thanks, and go As.
Fangraphs on the prospects.
Barreto sounds very interesting. I’m assuming that where it says “Hit: 20/55,” it should be 60/55.
20/55 means current/potential. So his Hit tool currently sits at 20 but projects to 55.
But 20 would be the worst possible grade, right? And yet the article cites scouts raving about his bat. That doesn’t sound right.
It’s simply saying his bat isn’t big league ready. Which is understandable for an 18 year old.
I see, thanks. The 20/80 scale doesn’t seem all that useful for that purpose.
its present /future, which makes it helpful… It shows a how much of your assesment is dreaming and how much is presently available.
Yep. It’s for the people who see their teams draft a prep hitter and wonder why he’s not in the big leagues the day after he signs.
Time for a new avvie, baby. I’m all in!
(Thunderbutt breaks through wall) OH YEAH!
Go Bears
I actually like Semien.
I wonder if the A’s believe he can handle SS. Even as a 2B/3B, he’s interesting. I think Anderson is still the prize there, though.
I’d love to get him. Good power, great K/BB in the minors the last couple years.
Someone persuade me that this trade makes any sense.
While I am opposed to trading a star player in his prime (when he’s under club control), I know how this team operates. What I don’t understand is this collection of players. The centerpiece of the deal, not counting the teenager, is an injury-prone guy with pedestrian numbers.
The trade makes sense in this way: Beane is gambling Lawrie will stay healthy through his peak years and produce almost as well as Donaldson. The scouting reports on Lawrie suggest that upside is there… I just don’t think he stays healthy enough to make it happen.
The problem with that reasoning is Lawrie has no history of staying healthy. Isn’t he hurt even now? His numbers don’t seem all that special even when healthy.
No one seems all that excited about the pitchers, but Beane seems pretty good about evaluating them, and the teenager is one of those guys you hope about.
But it just seems like the Blue Jays got a star in exchange for guys they could afford to trade away.
Chronic and/or severe injuries sap talent. We’ve seen this time and again with guys like Barton, Buck, Anderson, etc. So it’s not just a question that if Lawrie stays healthy he’ll produce. Even if he stays healthy, we don’t know if the talent is there or if, like you said, the mediocre hitting numbers now reflect the talent.
I didn’t say it was good sense.
I don’t think this is a good deal for Oakland. I agree, Lawrie can’t be expected to stay healthy.
Yeah. I’m really trying to see the logic here, but we traded someone we could afford to keep through his peak for a return you have to squint at. Simply put, that’s wrong.
I don’t remember the last deal that made sense to me (other than super-small ones like Ike Davis and $ Mills). I guess most of the Dec 2013 stuff was ok.
What’s worse is that Beane’s explanations just get dumber and dumber.
That doesn’t bother me. Beane can’t exactly explain himself honestly in the middle of hot-stove season.
Right now he’s trying to convince the White Sox or whoever that he’s totally cool with Andy Parrino being his starting shortstop.
Beane has flat out said his 2015 SS will have to come via trade.
Where?
He said they won’t be signing one as a FA. That doesn’t mean they won’t try someone at SS they already have, but it’d be in everyone’s best interest to trade for one at this point.
That’s basically how I read it. No FA, doesn’t mean via trade. But likely means they’ll try to get one via trade. I hope they do better than the last several deals and more importantly, better than he was last year at getting us an MFI.
Fair point.
Well, here’s what’s being put out through the Slussbeat:
why the FUCK wasn’t andy parrino in the wild card game after 7 then?
Melvin was on tilt.
That has to be it.
Parrino is not a strong defender.
He has a solid defensive reputation. We don’t really have enough innings to conclude one way or another, but his D has always looked fine to me.
I believe he had a nickname like the Wizard at Sacramento too. And in he made the best play I have seen live at SS when I had the front row seats. A full extension dive and then stand and throw out the runner.
He’s not Andrelton Simmons, but who is?
I don’t care about explaining himself exactly. Just don’t be intellectually dishonest. I’d prefer no comment to the mess he makes of it. It’s like he’s taking PR lessons from Wolff.
I sorta liked the EOF and Smith/Gregerson deals, although if we were thinking of trading Cespedes, Smith would have been great to have. I liked the Gentry deal as I had no faith in Choice.
Rangers have a tough decision on Choice for next year. They gave him a pretty long leash last season and he put up -2.1 fWAR, worst in all of baseball. Maybe it’s not a tough decision…
Beane is senile. Make any sense now?
I doubt he’s senile. But he does seem to be more willing to take riskier chances.
MAN!!!! You gotta check out this 2015 ATHLETICS promotional date calendar they just released…. I CAN’T WAIT FOR NEXT SEASON!!!!!!! A few of the many highlights:
Monday 4/6 vs. Rangers: 95.7 The Game “World Champion SF Giants 2014 ” coffee mug
Saturday 4/11 vs. Mariners: Small Market Saturdays!!!! First 35,000 fans will be turned away without explanation
Tuesday 4/29 vs. Angels: “Nothing to See Here, Folks!” T-shirt featuring photo of empty Coliseum (taken at first Small Market Saturday) and last 10 years of Oakland crime statistics
Wednesday 5/13 vs. Red Sox: BART $241 Wednesday (all Plaza Outfield tickets $241. Cash only.)
Friday 5/29 vs. Yankees: Replica Clubhouse Soda Machine keychain (takes real coins!)
Sunday 6/21 vs. Angels: Turn Back the Clock (To Last June) Night: Thrill as the June 2014 team is reassembled for a special ceremony, a real trip down memory lane. First pitch: Yoenis Cespedes, LAA left fielder.
Monday 6/29 vs. Rockies: “50 feet of crap… 20 million in profit” shirsey
Friday 7/17 vs. Twins: “Silence Is Golden” Fireworks Night (sponsored by Twitter): This fireworks night sure promises to be a special one! No music will be played and any fans caught cheering will be immediately escorted from the Coliseum and sent to Canada.
Saturday 8/8 vs. Astros: “All In!” tote bag with free replica Logan Airport ticket signed by Jon Lester
Friday 8/21 vs. Rays: #10 “Daric of the Dead” Zombie poster
Saturday 9/5 vs. Mariners: Special 1989 #11 Billy Beane jersey (since he’s the only one allowed to stay here)
Sunday 9/27 vs. Giants: John Fisher Fan Appreciation Day sponsored by The Gap (first pitch thrown out by a group of lucky indentured Indonesian laborers)
Funny!
White Sox it is then.
Good luck with that.
Hey Alex! Punto is a pretty good buy-low, bounce-back candidate too!
If he picks them both up he spreads the risk, making it MUCH safer.
He needs to put quotes around “2B”
and also change “buy low, bounce back” to “midseason DFA”
Thanks, and go As.
midseason? spring training.
I don’t think he can bounce
But he can float.
He’s a WITCH!
Cruz—> Mariners
Suddenly OUR overpaid DH doesn’t look so bad.
Thanks, and go As.
Grantland take on the JD trade.
Thanks, and go As.
The more I think about this deal, the more it seems like it has to be viewed as just a big bet on Lawrie. Obviously Barreto panning out or not will go a long way to determining who got more value in the end, but this is about Beane deciding a) there isn’t that much difference in what can be expected between the 2015-2016 seasons of Lawrie and Donaldson; b) most of what difference there is made up by Lawrie being cheaper; and c) given (a) and (b), you may as well take the excess value in prospects given the state of the farm system.
I’m not sure that bet on Lawrie is correct, but that’s the way I understand Beane’s thinking.
AT least there’s this. Lawrie is kind of a badass.
Thanks, and go As.
Jesus
I’ve always had him in my mind as a highlight-reel kind of guy.
There is blood splatter on his forehead.
spatter!
Whatever. When I made the screen bigger they looked like moles or freckles.
meh. he doesn’t even take one to the back of the head first.
Thought this was worth linking, about Donaldson’s wild arm. It’s certainly another reason that one can squint and see a 30 year old losing his range with a wild arm (i.e. someone who’ll be at 1B sooner than later). That said, a deal that requires as much squinting/hoping as this one doesn’t need to be made.
I also thought the (unanswered) question about whether modern fielding stats under-count throwing errors was interesting. I have no idea, but one of you FKers might.
Hmm.
obv Beane traded Donaldson away because they had an argument.
In June.
Thanks, and go As.
No. But the fact that they had this argument tells us something about Donaldson’s physical condition in the second half of the season.
please stop trying to discount my narrative. Beane hated Donaldson and this is CLEAR proof that he’s just in it for the money now because he’s part owner. WAKE UP SHEEPLE.
Thanks, and go As.
LEW LIES HE HAS DIMES
You folks follow this closer but I’m curious…how much a BS artist is Beane? I know a lot of coaches and GM’s lie all the time as a strategy or because they like to manipulate the media. When I see him interviewed I tend to find him forthcoming and honest but I was just wondering if he’s been caught fibbing.
Best I can tell, he just doesn’t answer questions instead of BSing or lying about stuff, but he outright says he can’t/won’t answer instead of making some crap up.
Thanks, and go As.
I think that’s the better way to go. Both in sports and in life.
i’ve been trying to remember a single instance when he’s said something, whether the general public could parse it at the time or not (because sometimes it only brings up debate about what he meant exactly), that 6 weeks to 6 months later still made sense.
I don’t think he lies publicly, but I definitely think he floats bullshit to beat writers (possibly through an underling) to give himself an edge in negotiations with other GMs.
He’s an interesting guy. I imagine it would be fun to sit down and pick his brain on a variety of topics. It’s still unique that the most famous Oakland Athletic is the GM. Anytime I mention the A’s to non-baseball fan friends they’ve only heard of Beane.
Honestly it would be stupid for front offices not to manipulate the media. I think SuSlu is probably plugged in well enough to be able to at least crosscheck that type of bullshit, but I’m sure it happens.
Maybe it’s time for Beane to go. He doesn’t have an advantage over other GMs anymore, and trading people because they piss him off has always been his great weakness.
It’s also time for Wolff and Fisher to go. They’re just in it as a business. We need an owner whose ego is tied up in winning.
I love this trade; with just a few minor modifications, my “LOWRIE4LIFE” banner can still be used in 2015.
Damn. I can’t believe we’ve been so short sighted. We looked right above the obvious, failing to see the little things about this deal that really matter.
Well, I haven’t been around lately so you’ve obviously missed my nuanced take on baseball.
Well, it does take a big man to admit that he’s missed such a small thing.
And by banner you mean tattoo, right?
And when not … uh, unfurled … it just reads LOWLIFE.
Well, now it will read LAWLIFE, so I can match Future Ed and nevermoor.
you’ll get it on your neck too?
It’s the tragic Cal-Stanford love story.
Arneson with like a bazillion words on the Donaldson trade. Except not really much about the Donaldson trade. I was hoping for a little more payoff at the end of that but ymmv.
what the fuck?
Thanks, and go As.
Jacobs, I want to know absolutely everything that’s happened up till now.
Well, let’s see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di’s clothes. I couldn’t believe it.
I can make a hat, a broach, a [something] pterodactyl!
Arneson II: The Sequel
As opposed to Nate Silver II: the SQL.
FreeKraut III: the SQL got Served!
It’s a long version of “it makes me sad when Billy trades the players I like”… which is a totally valid opinion, but kind of a roundabout way of stating it.
Srsly, that was kind of weird. I have been wondering, though, if there’s any way to measure the value of longevity of keeping a team together. I know we tend to kid about Sabes and the crazy contracts he gives to keep players that may be on the downside, paying for past performance, but while the measurable statistics are all(?) individual it remains a team game. Maybe there’s a value to stability that’s not being captured, and the constant flux of the A’s roster is detrimental to being able to put it all together.
They wouldn’t have won it all without Timmeh making 15M to not do shit this year.
Thanks, and go As.
$17
$2M to do stuff, $15M to not do shit.
Thanks, and go As.
[Checks math]
It’s sound.
$17M
He’s just subtly trolling Curt Schilling, right?
Sometimes I think the meaning of life is that we exist so that God can subtly troll Curt Schilling.
Thanks, and go As.
His issue with JD wasn’t necessarily that he wouldn’t play hurt. It was that if he was too hurt to play he needed to be DLed. Anyway, this new “Billy Boy” story does suggest that passions were pretty inflamed for a minute at least.
BA A’s
topleast bottom 10I’d be interested in seeing an actual case made for Chapman over Nunez.
IMO, the defense makes it a fairly easy decision. Chapman has the tools to be one of the best 3B in baseball, and his hit and raw power tools probably aren’t that far behind Nunez, if they’re behind at all.
Yeah, but Nunez has actually, you know, hit.
Performance wise, they weren’t as far as you’d think. Chapman jumped directly from college to full-season ball and posted a 91 wRC+ (there weren’t an awful lot of college hitters assigned to full-season this year). As awesome as Nunez’s line was, he was doing all his hitting in the California League, which adjusts to a 117 wRC+.
That seems pretty far apart to me. Nunez is also a full year younger. Chapman had 46 Ks and 7 BBs. His college numbers were also not particularly impressive.
you mean one of the best defensively?
That would be his strength, yes. I do think his mediocre showing at Beloit undersold his offensive upside though. He’s got some offensive tools at his disposal, too.
I hate the pick then. Still hate the pick now.
fixed
Now is when Bed really starts to regret the Donaldson trade.
I think you might need to re-post this in the latest lounge to get the attention of Bed.
now the trade makes more sense