As you can see, the new layout has made its way to the live site.
Please post any technical issues, design suggestions, or other comments in this thread. If you post them elsewhere, I may not see them.
In the meantime, benefits of the new design include:
1. Responsive layout, which means it should look good on smaller screens (e.g. mobile) without needing some other design.
2. Current, unhacked, wordpress core with modern plugins, which means we can do things like embed tweets with just the link (like we used to be able to do), and that I should be able to keep us on the most current wordpress version as they upgrade.
3. Should be cleaner and faster, since the old site was relying heavily on 4+ year old plugins.
Cheers.
As mentioned before, like it!
I did however hit a bug, while posting a reply on a thread, it refreshed itself after posting my comment and I lost all the following unread comments below.
It did give me an error window, but I unfortunately closed it before copying the text, sorry.
Running Chrome on a Mac fwiw.
Hmmm. If you could give me the error i’ll look at it tomorrow
Been fine since, will do if it comes up again, night!
I’m getting the same thing (also chrome on mac). Hold on one second and I’ll have that error message for you.
The page at freekraut.net says:
Cannot find current object unread-366926
And that popped up even though there weren’t any unread comments at the time I posted it. (but I have also had the same problem as brian where posting a comment zaps any unreads remaining on the page)
Same here.
Otherwise, I love it.
same.
and its only letting me make one or two posts before I have to close the window and re open
Swanky.
Looks like it also marked the comments in this post read after I made my comment, without me having cycled through them first. Firefox, Win8.
Posted elsewhere too, but 4-digit comment counts break the counter-bubble.
so, we need to put a choke on bed?
Sounds like a job for Kay.
I think we just need to live with that, as a mark of pride for breaking the 1k barrier
I’m still getting white space to the right on my phone. I believe it is still the hairy sausage tag that’s causing the problem.
yes. agreed.
Getting
Cannot find current object unread-366943
error when posting from chromium in ubuntu
Testing
Similar error as everyone else, only ending in 45 (W7/FF23)
Indeed.
Also testing.
Testing again.
So the error message references the comment # of some previously-highlighted-as-unread comment. When there is no such comment, I don’t get the error.
Yeah, I’ve got the issue figured out. Working on a fix.
BOOBIES
(My first post on the new layout!)
Which generated this message:
Using FF on Win7.
If you try to cycle through with c, you cant then mark comments as read with z after
I’m surprised that the functions work differently from before. That said, you don’t need to do that to make them stick as read
Can we get the Reply button slightly darker? I can’t see it on my phone or computer.
I’ll work on that after the marking read bug.
Is that better?
A metric shit ton better.
Sweet!
Looks like the marking read bug is universal, and might take me some time to fix.
In the meantime, I think the easiest solution is to switch to where loading a page doesn’t mark comments read. That way you won’t lose comments, but you’ll need to “mark all read” once you’re through them.
Kind of a nasty bump in the road.
actually I think having to mark all comments read is nice, because then you don’t lose anything and if you want to mark everything there is the button at the top no?
Same. I would prefer that be the permanent state of affairs.
hmm but now z is not clearing the side bar
I don’t think I would like that. When you’re gone for a while and have some catching up to do on multiple threads, you’d have to z through them all, then hit the mark all button, but by that time there are probably plenty of new comments in some of the threads you’ve just gone through. For someone like me with regular long stretches away from the site, that would not be ideal.
I was more thinking of comments stay unread unless you either A) Z them, or B) Mark the whole thread as read.
I find that especially when i have a slow connection and would refresh while loading to try to speed things up I would lose comments. Ill try to look at something briefly on my phone and things that I din’t see get marked sometimes too, so it would be cool for me to have the status of read being determined by A) or B) above and not a refresh.
I feel like I have read these comments before
yup.
A) i) I don’t z comments, I c/C them.
ii) Making a database call every time someone hits z seems like it would be a bad idea.
B) i) There isn’t a button to mark just the current thread read, is there?
ii) If there were, the problem of comments marked read being out of sync with comments actually loaded would be as bad or worse than the current behavior (depending on exactly how it worked).
I guess you could:
1. store page load time
2. have a button that marks comments in the thread before that load time read
3. not default to marking everything read.
That is difficult to the point of being impracticable, because you’d have to track each comment for each user.
Currently we just track access dates for each page/user pair.
I think after each comment, you should write a unique affirmation, that displays and makes me feel better about myself.
today, I am glad that ed commented on the blog
Then it isn’t a big deal. the old functionality works
That seems way less convenient.
My reaction too. Could conceivably be set as an option.
I don’t quite get that. But I will try to figure it out
is there a way to mark as read in a single post?
Not currently. Working to restore default behavior for now.
my default behavior seems to be working.
I am not getting the error message, but I still am prevented from posting after 2-4 individual comments.
OK, so it seems when the comments automatically mark as read, I no longer can post a comment.
It sounds like the javascript crashes after some number of comments.
When it next happens, can you look at your javascript console and tell me what it says?
ok
Did this work?
Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 404 (Not Found) http://a199962-a.akamaihd.net/e64fdfdf7905a6d03083af7803994f86.js?callback=Monetize.Helpers.evalTag&_=1377990384738
Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 404 (Not Found) https://a199959-a.akamaihd.net/d4abef81f697fca4d67dcc40dac06146.js?callback=evl&callback=jQuery182008640455454587936_1377990384923&_=1377990384932
Uncaught TypeError: Cannot call method ‘remove’ of undefined jquery.timers-1.2.js?ver=1.0:25
Uncaught TypeError: Object function (a,b){return new p.fn.init(a,b,c)} has no method ‘blockUI’ wp-ajaxify-comments.js?ver=0.16.1:27
Uncaught TypeError: Cannot call method ‘remove’ of undefined jquery.timers-1.2.js?ver=1.0:87
GET http://freekraut.net/wp-includes/js/jquery/jquery-1.10.2.min.map 404 (Not Found) /wp-includes/js/jquery/jquery-1.10.2.min.map:1
Uncaught TypeError: Cannot call method ‘remove’ of undefined jquery.timers-1.2.js?ver=1.0:87
Uncaught TypeError: Object function (a,b){return new p.fn.init(a,b,c)} has no method ‘blockUI’ wp-ajaxify-comments.js?ver=0.16.1:27
Oh yuck. That looks like a mess.
I’ll get on it when the basics are working
this issue seems to be isolated to me. I have a workaround that is acceptable to me. I want to check it on my work computer tuesday.
DOn’t worry too much about it.
also, it is less frequent now
Ok. If others have this issue, please post to bump it back up my priorities list
No issues at work so far.
Its my machine.
It’s not too big of an issue but one of the tags is causing the page to be too wide. Left to right scrolling on a web page is slightly annoying.
This should be fixed
Is there a reason the post titles are half black/half green?
It just came with the theme. The go single-color on hover.
I’m in woods on phone. Looks great, very viewer-friendly.
On top-level comments only, I cannot see the Reply button. Droid/Dolphin.
That’s strange. Is it there (i.e. if you click where it should be does anything happen?)
No. Nothing happens.
That’s what it looks like on my Android.
I can’t resize that image either.
Weird. It doesn’t work to set the height attribute of the image, but you can shrink it using the style attribute (style=”height: 100px;”).
The width option you get in the link button seems to be working
Can anyone with this no-top-level avatar/reply issue tell me their horizontal screen resolution?
looks like a function of the responsive stacking. when i narrow the browser window to the point that the right-side menus sink to the bottom of the page, the top-level avatar also disappears.
Looks like it’s using % widths instead of absolutes so it goes wonky when you reduce the browser width.
It has to use percentages to be responsive, at least as I understand things.
If it’s css based, you may be able to set absolute minimums (min-width: Xpx;) and that may resolve it.
I think I might have fixed it.
Can someone experiencing the problem let me know?
Not fixed
Agree with FSU. No reply button.
Also, I don’t know if inwas high, but on my phone the browser snapped to the first new commwnt. I think I was dreaming.
Interesting. It looks like it isn’t loading either the avatar or the reply, is that right?
For me, no avatars for any post, no reply for the top level.
Any chance this issue is resolved?
No. :-(
I don’t get a reply button on the first comment.
that was on my android phone
This is my new #1 bug to fix now that unread comments seem to be working.
Comments won’t mark as “read” for me. Every time I check this thread, the comments are all still yellow.
See above.
Ah… didn’t have time to before… just trying to help real quick…
Oooh. Pretty.
On an iPhone only the leftmost quarter of the screen is being used – the rest is blank.
OK – other posts are fine, and the shrinkage here is due to Ed’s mammoth URL.
better?
Unread comments should be working normally.
If they still aren’t for you, I’d love to see the contents of your console log
Test
yep, you rule
Thank you much.
NOt to be a pest, but it looks like the “edit” button is misspelled.
That was for testing
Noticed in the game thread that after I posted a comment it refreshed and showed some new ones in yellow but I couldn’t ‘Z’ them until I refreshed the page.
(Firefox)
I just noticed that too. I think I can add those to the z list.
Should be added now (unfortunately, always to the end of the list)
Also “C” (go backwards in unread comments) seems to be broken.
How so? Seemed to be working in the game 135 thread just now.
Looks like a corner case:
When “Search for text when I start typing” is turned on in Firefox (which I think you said you also use) AND I’ve scrolled down to the last new comment with “c,” “C” stops working to go back up and gets captured by the text search instead.
Not worth spending much time on, but I could have sworn it still worked in that circumstance before.
I’m mostly using chrome on my work laptop these days (because it installs w/o admin).
I agree with your recollection that C worked before. Any chance there’s a javascript error in your console that’s essentially shut down that function?
[10:55:42.019] TypeError: myObj is null @ http://freekraut.net/?p=13221:183
When I turn off automatic text search, the error still shows up in the console, but the key works anyway.
That probably happens when you’ve hit z from the last comment (it’s trying to find the next unread comment but there isn’t one).
Bizarre that the script doesn’t explode, but does cede to the firefox behavior.
Also, good work on the icon for the buttons at the top
On mobile FK, where is the section for unread posts supposed to be? Does it depend on the phone?
Depends on the device’s screen resolution. The “responsive” layout means that if your resolution is too narrow, it bumps the right column down below the comments (so you aren’t losing too much width on your comments).
New FK is working awesome for me now. Thanks nevermoor!
A Big Dit-toh here — looks Great, Less Filling!
Thanks guys. Pretty big hiccup, but I think we’re in good shape now.
Can we ditch the yellow to white fade when the new comment gets focused on ‘z’? Not sure why, but it’s kind of distracting.
If people agree we can try. I didn’t program it, so I’d have to find where the fade is coming from. I personally kind of like it though.
I don’t notice it.
It depends on the browser. If you’re using an older version of IE, you probably aren’t getting them.
Bigger threads with more comments get pretty bad. You can read the comment before the fade is over. Or you could if not for the distraction of the fade.
I’m usually on my phone where I can’t Z comments. That would explain it.
Just had something a little odd happen. Two posts showed a new comment or two but when I clicked into them nothing new showed up. Then yesterday’s game thread showed 7 new comments but when I went into it there were 5.
Maybe there was some sort of timing or count glitch that popped up overnight. Will have to see if it duplicates.
I had the same problem as JamesV. Showed unread comments but there weren’t any.
I’ve had that, and it showing more new comments than actually existed.
There are five comments in the moderation queue. Looks like a probable spammer.
Weird spam though – poorly spelled compliments without a link to anywhere.
Up to 7 now. That IP has an impressive list of entries on StopForumSpam.com.
You have me curious now.
Stop Forum Spam is a spammer database compiled by forum admins. I use it to 86 spammers from the hot springs forum. If you have a suspicious new registrant you can search by user name, e-mail address or IP address. The current FK spammer uses unique user names and e-mail addresses, but that IP address has 367 entries in the database.
Yeah, I was more wondering what sort of history this spammer has.
You can search 94.23.238 on Google. The signle misspelling in each empty-platitude post seems to be a signature. A lot of sites require a certain number of posts before you can post links. I generally assume the goal is to post links to virus sites.
Interesting. I wonder whether it has a set of stock phrases or a random platitude generator.
What do people think about adding a captcha system of some sort to login/registration pages?
Then we could go through and prune the user list and hopefully get fewer spam episodes.
I don’t think it’s necessary, though if going to this new version somehow generates more spam that should be re-evaluated. I do think it would help if you would give one or two other trusted FKers the ability to ban users but I know where you’re coming from if the answer is No on that.
I think at some point we should reconsider a lot of that kind of stuff, since editor-permissions are essentially haphazard, and I do like the idea of others having more permissions.
It’s one of those things that is in the back of my head but I never actually sit down and think through.
There’s probably a good balance that can be struck with this. I don’t know what that balance is, though.
What a helpful comment, right?
It’s more or less what we do on the hot springs forum (which is phpBB3; not sure how that translates to WordPress). We have a hosting account owner, then there’s myself who has admin access within phpBB, then we have 4 or 5 moderators. As the “head of Soakland Security” (as one of the moderators dubbed me) (or in-house asshole which might be more accurate) I do all the vetting of new users which takes quite a bit of workload off the hosting account owner.
That’s probably it. I should test for moderation in the plugin, though my SQL is a bit spaghetti-tastic, so the thought of tweaking it makes me shudder a bit.
If you need any SQL help (on this or elsewhere) let me know
Will do.
I think that would account for the difference.
I’m still having trouble with it not saving my login, except now it’s happening on both firefox and safari. I am clicking “remember me” and I’ve got it set to accept tracking so I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. Is anyone else having this issue?
Hey, Can we change the white on the masthead to the A’s yellow from the comments?
really minor compared to bugs, but it would be rad.
Should be done. Let me know what you think.
Can you tweak it to something closer to gold?
I can make it any color people want.
(I know you CAN) ;-)
BTW, looks like this is awaiting moderation. Is it because I added a to my profile?
A URL, that is.
I’m surprised it works that way, but it’s the only thing I can think of
Probably in case someone comes in normally and then tries to add something inappropriate as a link-to.
How about FFDC00 (255/220/0) and removing the bold from the taglines?
Better?
I’m not seeing any change.
Neither am I, yet.
Oh, there it is. I think that works.
If you aren’t getting your style refreshed, best thing to do is to open this page and reload it.
yup.
Much better
agreed
I vote more an A’s gold color
Ditto.
Darker gold may not show up as well against that background.
It doesn’t have to be too dark. There are a lot of shades of yellow that will still stand out against the darker background.
Whatever is up there now isn’t working at all.
Horrible colour and the taglines are hard to read.
I’d comment how it’s a little too dark and blended to the background, but then I realized that the video card on my work PC is jacked beyond belief and I’ve have to do significant color editing to get it to an approximation of normal. And it’s not even close.
The color is so horrible that it needed a u.
:-)
also is it taking longer to post comments that it use to or does it just seem like it?
There’s a bit more of a delay than before, I’ve noticed.
Up to about 5 seconds.
That’s likely so it can check the DB and load new comments.
Yep. Default WordPress doesn’t have ajax commenting (i.e. commenting without reloading the whole page). Our previous system used a ~5 year old plugin for that that had a lot of issues (including that it didn’t use wordpress-default comment nesting) so I could never update wordpress versions without everything breaking. The current system is modern/clever, but when you make a comment it checks/reloads the entire comment list (just not the page). This is what caused the various snafus with unread comments that people experienced both in the sandbox and when I went live here.
It also means that now when you comment, new unread comments load and go into the z-key list.
Unfortunately, the cost is that comments take longer to post (especially in longer threads).
I kind of prefer the other method, but I can’t find a non-ancient plugin that works that way.
Makes sense.
5 seconds or so, I think we can live with.
So it’s a sort of mix of live updating and longer comment post times this way?
Not quite live-updating, but when you comment it returns live-updated results.
Not necessarily a feature I was shopping for, but it is what it is (at least for now)
I both like and dislike it at the same time. I think you all discussed it further up. Getting a “Would you like to update? Yes/No” box would be nice. But both ways have their pros and cons.
I’d probably not like that, if that’s the example as it’d be. I’d rather not have to click a second box every time I post a comment.
In a perfect world of plugin finding, you could have two post buttons, one that updates the page, one that doesn’t. But such a thing probably doesn’t exist yet.
As long as we’re making crap up, why not pretend Nevermoor is Spider-Man?
Aren’t we already?
woah woah woah… back it up, NM isn’t spiderman?
Mind blown. Right?
Unfortunately it’s not optional. Without the plugin, posting a comment reloads the whole page. With the plugin, at least we aren’t reloading everything.
If I find a better modern plugin, I’m happy to evaluate it.
Once again, thanks so much nm for doing this, it looks fantastic.
Yeah – kudos, especially with all the other things you’ve got going on too.
agreed.
I thought I would HATE the new layout on a desktop, but it’s totally tolerable, and WAY better on a phone, which is what really matters these days.
Thanks all. Glad it’s working out. I certainly like it on my laptop
Looking at the new Kraut on a PC for the first time now. It’s awesome! Nevermoor, you rock!
what he said
never\m/oor
Agreed!
nm, it looks so pretty. thank you so much!
Woo it’s keeping me logged in now!!! Love the new look!
On my iPhone with Chrome, the reply button for top level comments does not appear on the screen (it seems to be off the screen to the left, but you can’t scroll to it). Once you get down a level in the thread, it’s there.
Yeah, I need to figure that one out, seems like it’s happening on a number of devices.
Cool. Thanks!
Just realized that we get double the tagline action now while on the homepage. Nice.
Not sure if it’s been discussed, is it possible to instead of having the green box going around the entire comment when it’s active/new, but have the highlighting over the word bubble turn green instead? It’s a little difficult to differentiate the appropriate parent comment when it includes the avatar. If not, maybe there’s a better solution of maybe getting right of the left border?
Not sure I’m understanding this, though the short answer is that I can do just about anything. But one thing that should help when you’re having trouble finding the parent is the “UP” link.
Right now on my screen, your comment has focus, but it’s green border’s left position is to the left of the light gray border around my comment. I can certainly use the up link, but it’d be nice to be able to see it better without it. Once I ‘z’ past your comment, the it becomes easier to see the indention.
That’s strange. For me the green border goes around the outline of the selected comment’s word bubble, tightly.
What browser are you using?
FF v23
Oh weird. Having tried it in IE I can see what you mean and works perfectly. So it must be a FF issue.
Seeing the same thing as you in FF
The green bounding box is misplaced in Firefox and Camino, but not in Chrome or Safari.
must be a box-model bug in firefox (since the element uses borders, margins, and padding). I’ll give it a look when I can.
No rush. I can certainly deal in the meantime.
Yeah, it’s a small thing. I didn’t even really notice actually until you mentioned it, dmoas. Of course, once you did, it’s all I can see. Point is, this is your fault.
Excellent. My job here is done.
Im not having the problem in FF w/ ubuntu
Oh, the irony of the box model bug *not* showing up in IE.
ik,r?
Indeed.
My firefox is doing it too, so I get the complaint. No time to play with it now though.
looks great.
the only improvement i can think of is for everyone without an avatar to get one.
Exactly
I just tried to add one and it didn’t work.
Same.
“Upload directory doesn’t exist”
Indeed
Shoot. I’ll play with it
lol. “i know… i’ll make a suggestion that won’t make more work for NM!”
sorry.
No problem. It’s a function that I should make work.
On avatars: there’s a better plugin out there than what we are using (which is stubbornly refusing to work perfectly).
Downside is that everyone would need to reset their avatars. Worth it?
Whatever makes things easiest for you. The rest of us can adapt.
I think I will do it tomorrow then.
People should make sure their avatar is saved somewhere if they want to stick with it.
OK. What’s the recommended size for the upload?
big avatar circle is 50px by 50px. and they give a rec’d memory size of 10k.
ha! i just right clicked on mine and found out WP doesn’t downsample the image it saves. i’ve been springing 900px of half-meg action in that tiny illegible square.
The new plugin does automatically downsize. One of its perks
good call, new plugin.
The plugin is called “CEO”
Vince was a little distorted anyway. I recropped him.
I guess I could swap this one in once in a while.
(image of a young Bill King)
Sexy.
this is a ©’d image. your use is in violation. i would sincerely appreciate that you take the image down immediately and never use it again.
it’s also a breach of my trust. a much smaller issue from your POV, to be sure. a less reparable one from mine, however.
(shrugs) OK, I’ll delete, but if you feel that strongly you made a pretty big mistake by posting it at all.
I don’t know. Downloading and using copyrighted images, music and texts has become a widely accepted behavior norm, but that doesn’t make it less wrong to do it. I don’t think the (at least the moral) onus to prevent it is on the owner, but on the ones who break the copyright rules.
I disagree. Once you post something where it can be publicly viewed, it’s out there. Ask Matt Garza about his “locked” Twitter account. If you don’t want something to be seen by everybody on the Internet, then have a little self-discipline and don’t post it to begin with.
i had permission of the © holder to use the image. there’s nothing illegal there. my mistake was trusting the community, granted.
you made the mistake of posting a ©’d image without even asking for permission. it’s illegal, whether you agree or not, and puts the entire blog at risk under wordpress’ terms. talk about self-discipline…
I’m curious now about what image. Is it the cover painting for the new book?
Interesting. The order of the comments on the last indent isn’t chronological, but dependent on what comment was responded to. This is new, right?
I think it is new. It surprised me when it happened. Also new is the fact that all of the comments have reply buttons, even when they are already shifted all the way to the right. Looks like we have more (unlimited?) levels of nesting, they just don’t display after a point (for good reason).
Yup. That is helpful for the later use of the “up” link to make some sense of who is replying to whom.
@Soaker
Bullshit.
If I create content (like taking a photograph of a sporting event, or illustrating a fashion outfit) and I post it on my web page it doesn’t give you right to copy that and use it on yours. True, it can be publicly viewed on my web page, too, but it is then publicly viewed on my web page.
And if you want to just ask someone, then just ask oatmeal, funnyjunk, their mother and a Kodiak bear.
@AV
I’m completely with you. Unfortunately, with stealing being made extremely easy, we as a society are adapting our morals to the technical capabilities instead of the other way around.
I didn’t see the image, but why would using it as a blog avatar not constitute fair use?
I don’t think making it into an avatar is a “transformative” use — meaning it didn’t add any expression or meaning to the image — which is the biggest factor in fair use analysis. Also counting against fair use is that the photo is unpublished for a few more days (though AV arguably published it by posting), and in theory being able to view the photo here lessens the market for the photo.
The idea that an avatar lessens the market for the photo is ridiculous. It is a non commercial use. I would also argue that there is transformative value in selecting part of the work to highlighted.
wikipedia
Interesting, but there the thumbnails seemed to be linking to full-size version of the images that were already published on the copyright owner’s (or licensee’s) own website. That’s quite a different situation than here, where the photos are unpublished and will only be available in a printed book.
Except AV published the work on a site that he has no control over and gains no revenue from, which is also the same site to which soaker used his image.
I would argue that soaker’s image doesn’t drive people away from FK to see it, it drives them too FK. Also, much like a book review, it is showing a part of the image, not the full thing, and doing free advertising for the whole of the image
I thought you said you didn’t see the image. How can you then say that he is “showing a part of the image”?!
I was arguing based off the idea that he used it as an avatar like his post says.
AV published the work very briefly and then took it down. He, as a licensee, has the right to do that without putting the work in the public domain. And I don’t really see this as cutting in favor of fair use:
Exactly. And I repeat, oatmeal vs funnyjunk.
oatmeal v funny junk is completely separate as funnyjunk is a commercial enterprise. Free kraut is not
You wouldn’t guess that from all that cash that nevermoor is raking in from his keystroke harvesting business.
That is completely different case. Also, what Soaker did was not use it as avatar, but as a normal sized image in his comment.
Well, either way funny junk isn’t applicable as FK isn’t a commercial enterprise.
But I find the avatar a far more interesting case to argue. However, if his image was smaller and linked to the original, I doubt that it would be infringement.
There is no original to be linked to.
i don’t know where to insert my reply to this thread, so just replying to last comment.
i took it personally and barked professionally. while i’m sorry that i confused the two angles last night, separately, i still feel grieved in one case though appeased in the professional sense just by having the image down. i’m only commenting for closure. i’m not going to hash it out any further.
Also what you would like to argue is not really relevant to the case that is being argued here. And to me one of the most important aspects here is that AV was acting on a trust to the community and explicitly said that he would not like for the image to be used by anyone else.
For me, that supersedes any court rulings if we are working under the premise of somewhat friendly bunch of users here.
That is what is being argued.
reminds me a little bit too much of
or does that only apply when I ask for things?
I love AV and am sorry he got upset by the use of his image, and if he asked me not to do something I wouldn’t, but it seems as if what you are saying here isn’t what the community has said in the past.
As very often, you have twisted the things almost beyond recognition and made a discussion out of something that wasn’t being discussed.
I have very little understanding of what you are arguing for or against right now, and gluing together small segments of my and AV comments isn’t really helping.
AV says use of the image is a violation.
DFA says pretty sure it would be covered under fair use
GM says no it isn’t
DFA links to explanation of why I don’t think it is
GM says interesting
EC interrupts and says What GM and DFA are talking about isn’t what is being talked about. and it doesn’t matter anyway because personal ask
DFA say actually it is what at least AV GM and DFA had started talking about and asks on personal preference have been decried in the past as being un Krautworthy.
For a really smart person, I sometimes wonder why you get lost like this with my writing. Maybe its the language barrier (which doesn’t seem to be problematic elsewhere) or maybe its my writing style (which doesn’t seem to cause significant problems for other people, or when it does a simple clarification usually suffices where it often does not with you) or maybe its because you don’t want to understand what I am saying. I don’t know, it maybe something else.
Big difference between “my personal preference is that you conform your posting habits to the way I like to experience the blog” and “my personal preference is that you not post copyrighted images that I gave the community a sneak preview of on the expectation that people wouldn’t reproduce them later.” Your conflation of two is perplexing.
They are both and expression of intellectual property, if i want to shrink and make a avatar out of an image, I believe that is legal, and therefore to use that representation as a visual stand in for myself its the same to me as using words as a representation of self
I question your seriousness in pursuing this line of argument. It’s that ridiculous.
Would you think that choosing how to express yourself visually is not a means of self expression?
The question during that exchange with FSU that you quoted was whether you could expect others to change their posting habits to suit you, not whether you could choose to express yourself as you wished.
Whether choosing how to express yourself visually is a means of self expression or not is not at issue. The point is, setting aside the niceties of copyright law, this community expects someone not to use the image under these circumstances. That community thinks we should accede to AV’s request here, but not to your earlier request of (I think) Bed, does not reflect a bias against you or in favor of AV. They are completely different situations.
AV saying that he shouldn’t use the image is a limit of self expression through curating the image he wishes to use as an avatar(though not one that I disagree with). Just as asking people to post short comments in one comment rather than many is.
They are very similar, with the difference of the medium being words and visual.
No one is stopping you from asking people to post short comments in one comment rather than many. You can do that to your heart’s content. People simply disagreed with the thought you expressed, and said that it couldn’t trump other posters’ expressive choices.
Nice avatar btw.
Right, just as since AV doesn’t have a legal right to demand that it gets taken down, he only has the right to ask. He can do that to his hearts content. Which is what my position on my request was… and yet, people said that request was antithetical to the blog.
I think the biggest thing you seem to be missing DFA is that there’s no “letter of the law” around here, so attempting to connect the two situations is assuming there is one. They’re different. Perhaps not from a legal and/or argumentative position (as you argue, albeit correctly), but certainly one from an existential one. Whether one can explicitly point out what the difference is isn’t important so much as being able to recognize that there is, in fact, a difference.
I understand that there is no letter of the law around here.
If the difference is that important someone should be able to point out what the difference is.
In one case, the behavior that people are being asked to refrain from could cause the requesting poster personal and professional harm. In the other case, the behavior that people are being asked to refrain from is causing the requesting poster minor annoyance. How’s that?
Thats fine.
Then AV should have said oops I didn’t intend for others to use this I shouldn’t have posted it, please don’t use it vrs. you violated my rights and by using it you are wrong.
nope. that’s not what i should have done. i didn’t do anything wrong. i am free to publish what i have rights to publish, on a hidden blog, in an online newspaper, in a zine, on a print mag with worldwide circulation, or any other form . if others steal from me via download-reupload, photocopy, or even re-writing with a couple words changed, that doesn’t put me in an onus of i shouldn’t have published in the first place. the only *should* at that point is a statement of cease and desist to state hat it’s not OK. i did that. image taken down. legal issues over. all that’s left are trust issues.
f others steal from me via download-reupload, photocopy, or even re-writing with a couple words changed, that doesn’t put me in an onus of i shouldn’t have published in the first place.
I love your completely twisted interpretations of what has happened. In this case I especially like how I was “interrupting” a discussion in which I was present from the very beginning and you jumped in offering a court ruling that was completely irrelevant to the issue at hand and then somehow managed to make it about you and your right to have or not have certain posting habits on this blog. Sometimes it doesn’t have to be about you.
Actually, you were interrupting because there were several of us who were talking about the legality of a cropped version as an avatar, and you barged in to tell us what we could or could not talk about.
Also as soaker said, he cropped it which creates a thumbnail so the case would apply, so you can gfys.
I really wonder if you would tell me to go fuck my self in person.
Absolutely, if you had been this antagonistic to me over the last year and if I was having a conversation on a topic of interest with some people and you came over and were rude like this.
One has to admire your ability to live in the parallel reality, the one in which you call me a dumbass and tell me to go fuck my self and in which I am rude to you.
I also highly doubt that you would indeed spit the same insults in person. For one, I think people are generally somewhat vary about insulting strangers when they are not feeling mighty behind their shielded keyboards. And before anyone interprets this as any kind of implied threat of physical violence, it is none of the kind. I find people who threaten others with physical confrontation on internet just as ridiculous and reality-replacing as the ones who constantly brag about one’s sexual irresistibility and conquers.
Further more, I have been told by more than one person whose opinion I value, that you are a nice, sweet and somewhat shy person in real life, very different from the “insufferable ass” that you are on internet. It is very possible that I would find certain patterns of behavior less annoying if I have had the experience of that other side of you, but I haven’t.
For a while I tried to stay out of any exchanges with you, which is probably a prudent thing to do, or at least to limit them to the actually factual ones. But, you know, mathematics, for one, is not the matter of opinion, and if you stubbornly stick to your “opinion” even after more than one person who is actually pretty good at math points that you are calculating things wrong, then any chance of having a constructive exchange on matters that are less obvious is almost non-existent.
Your often used style of debate-club arguing is extremely detrimental to my enjoyment of FK. The essence of the debate club is to stick to one’s a priori opinion no matter what, and to try to win the points of the imaginary jury. It is style over essence, it is endless quotes of little excerpts, it is running in circles, moving the goalposts, trying to find anything in the semantics of one’s “opponent” that one can dissect and divert to.
Both through real life experience and general affinity, I prefer something that could be called “engineering/scientific” approach to debating. I want to know the answers at the end of the day, regardless of what my opinion was in the beginning. That is why I spent countless hours digging and analyzing baseball numbers, because I just wanted to know what the real answer is. See, in my work, I cannot wiggle and muddy my way around with some fancy rhetoric. There either is light at the end of the fiber optic or there isn’t. It is not matter of skewed opinions; if you want to achieve your goals, you have to get it right, and you have to learn to accept the truth.
Having said all that, I do realize that my constant bickering back at you is just as detrimental to the others as what I described above is to me. People do not come here to read repeated jabs and barbs of the same two posters over and over again, and for that I am at least as guilty and I am sorry for anyone I might have helped drive away.
I frankly don’t know what the solution is. We could stop replying to each other’s comments, but that is not really the solution, as we will sooner or later wind up in the same subthreads with differing opinions or “opinions”. I am looking into some technical solutions on my side now, but in the meanwhile I will take a break from FK. I really enjoy communicating with many posters here (for the record, I find lots of what you post interesting, too), but my overall enjoyment from the blog is negative right now.
P.S. Just to make it clear in advance, I will not reply to anything further in this subthread.
@elcroata: leaving aside the EC vs DFA steel-cage grudge match stuff, which is rather tiresome for all including both of the two of you who I truly cherish here…this is a fantastic comment.
@elcroata
Well said.
I have not called you a dumbass in this thread and I demand that you retract that statement. Furthermore, a search for ‘dumbass’ reveals that the last time I used the term was to call Reddick one in early August. Searching the term “dumb ass” does not turn anything up either.
Yeah… thats the most false assertion who I am as a person I have ever heard.
In no way did I physically threaten you, or suggest a physical confrontation. Go fuck yourself while crude, is not a threat of any action. Note how I didn’t say anything about causing you physical harm. Especially since if you engaged in violence against me, Ed would be defending you rather than your arms in front of your face.
To the second part of your statement, this is a personal attack on my character in ways that I have never pursued against you. Further, you sir are the greatest example of a oneuper the I have ever known, and considering how many of my stories you have responded to with “you made out with a French girl once, while I had a three way with some on NYE” I would suggest you look in the mirror with your self assessments.
I for one enjoy talking to my friends on here about my life and its resplendent joys such as dancing, cooking and yes making out with attractive people, people like the slingers and the witch and g dial c FSU future ed AV NM mr only and many more to numerous to name. I will continue to do so regardless if you like it or not, or whether you judge it or not. I care not what you think of my life, because as you have shown repeatedly over the last year, you are not worth caring about.
And yet you engage in it. When I say that something was an off the cuff statement and not researched or that a debate that you are trying to engage me in isn’t interesting to me, you object and continue to argue. Thats not on me as you acknowledge here:
Since I said that if you want to vote, you should become a citizen (though that process should be easy), you have significantly decreased my enjoyment of this place by being unkind and rude to me, to the point of equating me with a homophobe and a fascist, to constantly picking at me, even when I am not even talking to you like above. I think you should acknowledge that.
Yet, despite these insults, I have not attacked you personally, (though the oneuper comment above probably qualifies so lets just say before now) and yet you have called my personality and who I am as a being into question, confident enough in your righteousness of your participation to judge me; not my baseball acumen, not my political views, but me. You might want to check the construction materials of your house before you start throwing rocks.
You called him a dumbass in the recently revived trade deadline thread. I demand that you retract your demand for a retraction.
Mention of it: http://freekraut.net/?p=12874#comment-347096
Elcroata references it here: http://freekraut.net/?p=12874#comment-368123
I searched for the term on FK’s search which I have found to be super spotty in the past (like when I try to find the ramen recommendations from San Mateo later) and since google shields are up I couldn’t use that means. I retract that statement and apologize.
Ramen Dojo
before I go it was really fantastic. I took my uncle and ant for a good bye dinner before I moved.
Glad you enjoyed it.
Don’t go, by the way. I like you.
Hey DFA:
You are a piece of shit. Go fuck yourself with a broken bottle.
Kay, thats not really my type of thing, but since it seems to be yours, more power to you. I hope you find more peace and happiness in this world.
All legalities aside, ethically speaking AV said when he originally posted that he only was going to so temporarily and made it clear where he stood on the image’s use. By using it without his permission is to show disrespect to him. If that’s the okay with the new user of the image, so be it. But it doesn’t make it “okay” in general.
I think the legalities discussion is actually quite interesting, although personally moot since AV is against it and that’s what matters in this case (to me).
Right. AV asking nicely should trump whether or not he has a legal right to.
I however don’t think he has a legal right, whats your take?
I haven’t dived into the details of copyright law, but I would say a lot of the legality hinges on whether the photos can be considered published or not. Does briefly sharing them on an online community before removing them count as publishing? I understand the “once it’s on the Internet it’s out there forever” mentality, but from a legal standpoint, I have doubts that that would satisfy the conditions for “publishing.”
Additionally, using the court case you linked to as a guide and comparison, the intended use here differs, which may hold relevance. I would argue that given the non-commercial nature and audience, Soaker would be ok on that front though. It would help if he were able to link to the book’s website or copyright holder in some manner.
I’d say that AV may be in the legal right until the book is published. Afterward, I’d lean to Soaker. But I’m not a lawyer and other such caveats. And again, I would defer to AV on personal relationship/preference alone.
yes
Fwiw, this is right. “Publishing” means just about anything other than a private one-to-one conversation.
You know, this turned into a completely fucking ridiculous argument.
Seriously who gives a shit about whether it’s legal or copywrited? Someone in our community fucking asked not to do it, don’t fucking do it.
Jesus christ
Thanks, and go As.
For the record, I cropped out about 75px x 75px of the much larger image AV originally posted and floated that as a trial balloon as a potential avatar. I thought that would be OK. Obviously it wasn’t, and I deleted it immediately upon AV’s request. As far as I was concerned it was a minor matter that was resolved last night.
I’ll just gently reiterate that if you have something that should not be made public, but want to share it with some friends, posting it even briefly on a public website is not a wise move. In addition to me making a use of it that AV didn’t anticipate, any lurker could have come along and grabbed the whole image and posted it all over the place.
on the lurker tip, when I was on my friends computer today I thought I inadvertently typed freekraut into google, instead of going here, it found nothing, besided the oG site.
So I think we are pretty protected
The most recent post on freekraut.wordpress.com:
just pointing out that even searching for the URL doesn’t bring us here, so I think the google shields are working and we don’t really have to worry about outsiders seeing the content.
I’m not actually worried at all. Just thought it was funny.
Everyone agreed that someone asked to not do it and that demurring to that request was a good idea.
Dial C
GM
AV
So there are at least four people who care about the legality question.
Furthermore, how the culture of intellectual property is changing and the laws that were mostly written at the behest of corporations a hundred years ago that govern the use of ip is one of the most important issues of the day (eg SOPA etc) and I for one and I think the others think that it is interesting and worth talking or even arguing about.
Copy RIGHT!
GET IT STRAIGHT, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!
No big deal.
As someone without an avatar I fail to see the downside.
I’m okay with losing Jan Miner if I have to.
I dunno what I’d replace it with, tho… prolly leave it blank… Pretty much everything is copyrighted these days, right? And all the pictures I take myself seem to have naked people in them, so none of those would work either…
i guess i should go with a new one then. how’s this?
If the shoe fits.
Minor bug:
When I post a comment in a thread that has had new comments added since I last refreshed I understand that the other new comments are now loaded along with mine. However when the page is loaded those new comments still show up in the unread comment counter.
just been getting that today. I am using a collegues computer with IE. (Its where the TV is at work)
I’ll need to think about this one. I’m not sure I can fix that, since my interaction with the reloading is happening with javascript, and setting the database happens server side.
It’s on my list, but might be on the wrong side of the effort-payoff scale for now.
Avatars plugin changed. Some people are getting avatars pulled from somewhere else (Gravatar?), but you can go here to set your FK avatar. Square images are best, and best not to choose something huge or super high quality.
Square better than circular, even with the circular style shown?
square better than rectangle, maybe so that you can predict the center as it’ll show inside the round frame better. can’t make a round image file, s’far as i know…
This.
Well, the parts around the circle being white, of course. ;-)
I’m thinking more in the sense of the part you’ll actually see.
I like what you landed on.
Figured it was time to go back to a timeless future classic.
i think the autosizing takes the longest of the two sides and fits that within the square, then shortens the already short side proportionally.
so if you have a 50×70, it will make it a 36×50, showing white edges on the sides of the 36. (sorry EM. i noticed that in your nara earlier.) but if you start from a 70×70 or 100×100 or XxX, no worries.
I see how it converted the square image so most of it still fits inside the circle instead of chopping too much off. Cool.
And circle gets the square!
Ah, thanks.
The doctorK facepalm has been restored.
heh, I hadn’t even noticed that my avatar changed, because I’m used to using this image on other sites. I think that FK must have grabbed it off gravatar, which I have an account with for some forgotten reason.
ps Ive been experiencing really long load times on the unread comments widget
Not good. I’ll have a look.
Still getting loading on the unread comments widget for like 10 minutes. Its still going, but im going home.
I had this issue earlier today (windows/chrome). It was gone later today.
I’ve had it pretty frequently over the last week or so. It fixes itself if I close my FK tab and open a new one (but just reloading the page doesn’t work). I thought maybe it was that issue nm mentioned before that certain host servers weren’t working quite right with FK?
But, in the process of writing this, I notice that I’m using chrome, FSU is using chrome, and I’m pretty sure that DFA uses chrome. I think that chrome runs each browser tab as a separate process, so maybe something has died in that process (I know FK-all about javascript) and the only way to get going is to restart?
I use three different browsers, but chrome is where the problem was
Support for my theory* then.
*Admittedly a pretty weak theory at this point because I still have no idea what the problem is, just a possible reason for why closing a browser tab would fix it.
In chrome, you should be able to ctrl-shift-J and see the javascript console. If javascript died, there should be an error message.
Thanks. Uploaded that file (though it’s odd that a .map file would be the problem)
I’ve mentioned that about Chrome a couple times before; it’s been that same thing where Chrome will refresh the Unread Comments for a while and then decide to hang on …loading… and obstinately refuse to work thereafter. As I said previously my solution was “use Firefox” rather than “bug nm about it”. I’ll let Chrome run during the game thread tonight and see if that has solved it.
I tried looking at that console when I was having the problem but didn’t see any messages. FWIW, I don’t seem to be having the problem on my mac, only on linux.
Or maybe I am not having the problem because you fixed the problem. Let me check on my laptop (ubuntu).
Sweet, I think this particular bug is gone on both of my computers now.
Whoops, it’s happening right now. I don’t see anything in the chrome Developer Tools console.
So fking strange.
I have the same console. Hope that that can solve something and be positive as my last thing here.
Same console message as soaker?
I don’t see new comments as being new (there are supposedly a couple hundred since my last visit to this post… probably most of them are in that long-ass column of right-side comments that I just scrolled past, so maybe there was an answer to this issue posted in there).
I’ll try logging out and then logging back in to see if new comments on other posts will look new to me.
(Safari on OS X)
And I guess I need to figure out my avatar. Will do that at some point when I have time to care.
And holy shit, it takes a long time for comments to post.
Yeah, almost all of the new comments since last night (~6 hrs ago) are in the BK copyright thread, which has reached maximum indentation
Max indentation seems to be reached pretty quick.
New comments look new now, btw. I don’t know exactly what I did differently. I think when I first revisited this post today, I clicked on the green “number of comments” bubble next to the name of the post, instead of clicking on the name of the post. I don’t know what difference it makes – when I click on the name of post, new comments look new, but not when I click on the numbered bubble.
Shouldn’t make a difference.
I’m less than thrilled with comment speed too. Might have to go back to square one on the comment plugin one of these days.
On the indentation thing it looks like we hit the right margin at 9 levels down. When FKers start slugging it out that’s not much; I think it was 15 levels in the previous format. But regardless of the exact number, once you’re on the right margin the posts ought to go in time sequence (and posters can use @nevermoor or whatever to make it clear what they’re replying to). That discussion above is a scrambled mess.
SEE WHAT YOU DID?!
JK
I second the chronological sorting move. Having “reply” (and subsequently “up”) on every post is a great (and sufficient) help to see who is responding to whom (apart from the @someone dingies).
Just changed it to 15.
There’s a dropdown in the admin options that goes to 10, which is the only reason I did it that way. To go higher I had to find the DB entry.
The new Free Kraut looks great…thanks, nevermoor.
I gave this post a quick read and I didn’t like the ending…this site is worse off when someone like elcroata feels like he needs to take a break from it.
ugh, I set off a shitstorm which wound up chasing elcroata off the site. I apologize to everyone here. I told AV he didn’t see the consequence of his action, but I definitely didn’t see the consequence of mine either.
I think it’s pretty obvious that it was more than just this “shitstorm” that caused elcroata to take a break.
It displeases me.
I think it displeases most of us.
I’m pretty sure it was going to happen anyway.
well look at that. you do know the words to an apology. and agency is a concept you’re familiar with.
but i wanna hear more. i wanna hear the human side of this. i wanna hear how you are recognizing a pattern. i wanna hear how the two times, at least (i may have missed other times), that someone has shown an ounce of vulnerability by posting an image they wanted to share with the community, giving more regard to their friends than disregard to the dangers of the ‘net, you knowingly and immediately acted against that confidence. i wanna hear how you know the difference between linking an image to show, and taking it into your own possession to change it to suit your purposes. i wanna hear also some vulnerability on your side, how maybe you thought by reposting a cropped version of that image and showing it directly to that person, you thought you’d endear yourself to them. i wanna hear how you were surprised to receive an immediate reaction the other way. i wanna hear how you maybe your intention backfired and you didn’t realize it would, like maybe you thought that you were paying tribute rather than lacking respect. i don’t wanna put any more words in your mouth, especially if the ones above don’t jibe with what you wanna say, but i do wanna hear you addressing me without a shrug implying blame to what i did. and then i wanna move on. thank you.
How about moving on before making that post instead?
because i’m still hurt about it. i had put this whole page aside, thought i was cool with it, then rediscovered it last night. read it this morning in detail. and everything came back at me.
i’m sorry, really, to involve anybody else. i feel shitty airing it out like this but i have no communication with soaker otherwise. it is my pattern that if i’m hurt i need to tell the person till he or she at least hears me, and i don’t feel like they hear me till they acknowledge or even just look me in the eye and tell me they see me standing there. i guess i can’t move on otherwise. but that’s really all it takes.
Fair enough.
It seemed like you guys had gotten to that point, but apparently not.
Your tone just struck me as awfully inflammatory in the above post. Much less so in this one. I don’t really want to be involved either, but we’ve had too much ugliness here this week, with AV/Soaker (round 1) turning into ec/DFA (round infinity) and now seemingly turning back into AV/Soaker (round 2), so I’ll just say (rather generically) that I hope you guys can come to a better understanding, or at least a detente, before either of you (or anyone else) feels like the negatives of being here outweigh the positives.
ok, thank you.
maybe delete it? i don’t know.
soaker, my email is alvaro at mcsweeneys period net
i’m fully capable of having a civil conversation if you wish.
i’m not arguing. trying to learn. what part do you object to?
gosh i feel stupid now.
AND YOU SHOULD. EVERYONE SHOULD FEEL STUPID. ITS HOW WE KEEP PEOPLE DOWN
It’s a little thing but until elcroata returns from his break I won’t be posting any new lounges. I’ll still post when I’m around in other folks lounges but this is just my little way of saying…I’m not happy.
Please reconsider. Remember, elcroata has often taken hiatuses for reasons entirely unrelated to blog stuff. Making FK less fun (which you not posting lounges assuredly does) is not going to help.
I appreciate your post FSU but this time elcroata isn’t taking a break for something unrelated to the blog. When someone like elcroata is told to go fuck himslef that makes FK less fun. I feel a line has been crossed.
It’s the pro and con to a hands-off kind of place where people are free to say and act however they want and personalities clash.
Honestly, the other person in this situation is a bully. Many times I’ve wanted to not come back to this place because of this. The constant bickering about every little thing is exhausting. I’ve ignored many a thread when that shit start.
Ignoring it is probably the way to go but when it drives away someone I really like…well, then it’s hard to ignore.
I’ll just say this upfront…if Jennifer or Oz is ever driven away from this site…I’m out, period.
No one else thinks that, but thanks.
I may stand alone but I’m happy where I’m standing.
Me, I’m not here to fight and bicker with people. It’s one reason I’m not all that interested in debating people on players, stats, etc.
But, I’m no real fan of debate-team tactics in general. There’s more to all this than stubbornly trying to win an argument any way possible.
I like reading the back and forth on baseball stats, and sometimes on other things, but I’m with elcroata’s opus above that it’s more fun and edifying for all when its a search for truth rather than a battle to prove whose initial, hastily reached position is correct, and who, therefore, es mas macho. People here are very smart, and know a lot about a lot of diverse things, and when they test each other’s thinking by respectfully poking and prodding at ideas and presenting counterarguments, it’s quite interesting for me at least.
Yes, this.
Well said, Glorious Mundy.
I’ve said it more than once…you can disagree without being disagreeable.
I believe I won that argument
I don’t think many people are on FK to fight and bicker…most of the time this is a very friendly place.
I don’t even remember if my HS and college had a debate team so I certainly don’t know much about debate team tactics.
What does my name scare you?
I’m with you, Jennifer. I have to say when threads become non-stop bickering, I just move on. It really is tiring. What I’ve been trying to wrap my head around is whether it’s a guy thing, or if it just strikes me as a guy thing because there are mostly guys on FK.
Men: Can’t live with them, can’t replace them with robots for at least another ten years.
And we’ve lost good posters because of this.
That’s my feeling…if several people told me my behavior was causing problems on this site I’d either change my behavior or leave.
That’s all true…which means I’m free to respond the way I have and to feel the way I feel about it. Others are free to think I’m all wet and should get over it.
Not trying to argue with you here…your position is valid and of course your choice to make. Just pointing out that elcroata could stay away for a week due to FK issues, then spend three months building a fortress of solitude in the Arctic Circle from blocks of ice the size of freight train cars hewn with his bare hands.
I see your point…and it makes sense. I’m not trying to argue with you either. This is just a small gesture that feels like the right thing for me to do.
And just to get this out of the way…I realize I’ve made mistakes and said stupid things on this site which is why I’ve had to apologize more than once. I’m not trying to pretend like I’m a saint.
I’m a big fan of people who take responsibility for the mistakes, apologize, and then move on having learned from them. It’s one of the attributes I work hard to instill in my kids.
It’s a good attribute to instill.
pshaw, it would only take him a month and a half, tops.
You forget about all the time he will need to stop and have sex with supermodels flying in from around the world for him.
And yet you are ok with EC equating me to a nazi, or kay saying what she did? Because that shit makes this place less fun for me (and coincidentally, makes it more likely that I respond in kind) and yet I saw you nowhere bed.
Nobody should be treating each other in these ways here, but it’s the internet and it’s people saying things in the spur of the moment.
Sometimes an apology from all sides goes far.
You have quite the persecution complex.
Pretty much everyone has acknowledged, from NM to Ed to FSU to Dial C that I get treated differently around here than other people and as NM has said, when I get upset at things that upset me that reasonable people would get upset about, I get jumped on. Really its fine.
You attack people and when they respond you demand apologies and claim you’re treated differently.
You love to throw fire but you can’t take it when it comes back at you.
You cause more strife than the rest of us combined and yet nothing is ever your fault.
You lack self awareness about your behavior.
You bring a lot of his on yourself whether you realize that or not.
Before I go, I would like to just mention a couple of things that are my fault I have in the past apologized but for which I still feel bad about since Im not going to be around anymore.
I made a mean comment about EN being on acid because he was trying to fix the thing on AN. He found that hurtful, and I apologized, but I still remember and regret it very much.
I should have kept my opinion to myself about your life choices on ** and just ignored it rather than getting baited into a pot shot based on being compared to you which was hurtful. Regardless of how annoying I found you at the time it was wrong.
I believe there are time in which I have hurt AVs feelings like in the Empire of the sun thread. Even if I think that he was disparaging of me I should have found a better way to communicate with him and safeguard his feelings, and I think he is a wonderful person, and regret not doing so.
My rift with Jesa this winter had a myriad of causes, but I love her perhaps most of all of my many friends here, and while I am happy it has healed, while it was going on it made me very sad. I love her soul and knowing that we were not in harmony, if but for a brief time I regret.
Your paragraph about me is pure you I’ll give you that. The other ones were nice though and to be fair I can see why being compared to me would be hurtful to anyone.
Either I mispunctuated or you mis read. Probably the former.I was saying that my actions were hurtful, not that being compared to you was. Let me try again.
I should have kept my opinion to myself about your life choices on ** and just ignored it. I should not have been baited into commenting about what I saw as the differences in our lives. My words were hurtful and I regret them. Regardless of how annoying I found you at the time it was wrong.
I’m sure I read it wrong…and you and I have already cleared the air on this one so it’s water long since under the bridge for me.
My issues are not in any way personal and I’ve always liked you more than you thought. My laundry list post about you was out of line and for that I’m sorry.
I think you’re a good read on this site 98% of the time. I hope you’ll reconsider and not leave the site.
DFA, please do the vast majority of us a favor and go away.
Please quit FK so everybody else doesn’t.
I hate speaking up in these things, but I really hope that you don’t do this.
It seems, at least for now, that some folks are pretty oil/water, but the website is infinitely large and any user can have unread comments stop working for any thread if it starts going to a place they don’t want/care to track. I really hope that’s enough to keep people from actually quitting.
I really do appreciate all you have done for keeping this site up and running. Perhaps you can join the brunch group sometime when the baby is a little more manageable.
I didn’t want to get in the middle of this, but I’ll just say that I do not endorse this comment, let alone the horrifying one further up.
Kay’s first comment was over the line. I know we don’t have rules here but how about we all just agree not to tell each other, no matter the reason…to go fuck themselves.
I don’t want anyone on the site to quit…and for the record I do not hate DFA…I’m just tired of the personal attacks and the mean spirited nature of many of these debates.
Same here. I hate to see people go.
i like dfa. I hope he comes back soon.
I can’t co-sign on this.
It’s too bad it got to this point but it was inevitable. I’m on the same page with Kay. DFA’s permanent departure is not just the best, but the only, workable solution going forward.
I get what you’re saying…there is a tipping point on all things…I guess I just prefer to see people work things out. Sometimes though that just isn’t likely to happen.
…and before people point out that I’m going back and forth on things…I freely admit I’m conflicted about a lot of stuff in this thread.
It’s as obvious to me as “Nico should resign as chief admin, and his continued participation should be as a regular user.”
Well, Nico’s behavior caused many of us to leave AN. If DFA’s behavior was going to cause several people to leave FK then I see your point.
Perhaps, but DFA is not in a position of power or authority here. If anything, it’d be similar to their claims that people like DFA and PT drove others away from AN.
There is often a fine line between simply correcting someone who’s wrong and doing it in what looks like a dickish way, but I think in some cases back then thicker skin would have been helpful too.
For me it’s not the position of authority that’s the issue; it’s that their continued presence in their current role brings a negative vibe to the site. I haven’t had any direct confrontations with DFA any more than I did with Nico, but that poisonous atmosphere has worn me out. I moved on from AN. If DFA comes back here, that’s fine, but I guarantee there will be at least one departure.
If he comes back and apologizes and has shown growth and recognizance, we should give him another chance.
When I came back and apologized, I figured I’d stand and let the garbage be thrown at me in penance and then I’d move along to another adventure elsewhere. I was happy and surprised to see the level of forgiveness and tolerance, and being cognizant that FK doesn’t have an influx of new members, I decided to come back, and eventually fell back into the flow of things.
I lost my temper today, and as usual, there were extenuating circumstances. However, just as DFA needs to work on some things, I need to work on not letting my temper get the best of me and saying stupid things that go over the line.
whereas there are always things that can’t be unsaid, I never see why people dwell on words said in anger, its like being drunk, its a feeling that inhibits articulatness.
I said something really mean to DFA at ** once and another time completely baited him with the question game. (so much so other people were jumping on me as well). That was before I met him IRL.
I hope he comes back sooner than later
Over the years I’ve gotten several emails telling me that DFA is nice in real life…my response is that really doesn’t matter to me in terms of how he is on this site.
He could be very nasty and personal in his attacks and that stuff does drive people away from this site.
I’m fine with him returning but if he comes back with the same behavior Soaker won’t be the only one leaving.
If it seems like I’ve flip flopped all over the place in this thread it’s because I’ve had time to think about it.
I actually think we do need one rule on Free Kraut no more personal attacks. Those kind of attacks are beneath us as a group.
…and another thing.
Okay, I’ll shut up now. I’ve fired all my meta bullets.
meta bullets are like an action movie, there are always more.
That is a good point about the IRL v online not really mattering.
I completely disagree. Some of us like DFA, and I am not behind some vote him off the island garbage. DFA’s involved in a lot of arguments, but he doesn’t start them all, and I don’t usually see him being the one who escalates them to personal levels. He can certainly be stubborn and continue arguing beyond the line of just let it die already, but it’s also perfectly easy to have a civil argument with him.
He may not always be tactful or good at staying out of an argument, but many here are far too quick to jump on him and take things to the next level themselves. If you don’t feel like you can engage him and stay civil, don’t engage him at all. It’s not that hard. If you don’t like DFA’s thing, you don’t have to read it or respond. Everyone is free to engage the community in the way that they are, and that’s how it damn well should be.
Look, when you get down to the core of it, DFA and I are both trolls.
He likes to fuck with people through argument because he thinks he’s smarter than everybody else, just like I like to fuck with people through cultural shock because I think I’m more evolved than everybody else.
Yet, I don’t go around here picking on y’all for being vanilla. I generally play nice most of the time. DFA, however, picks on people for any choice they make that violates his own nonsensical personal code, or any opinion they hold that’s counter to his. He generally does not play nice most of the time.
The nonconfrontational types always say “Can’t we all just get along?” Well, the answer is “No, we can’t.” We don’t have the tools here to determine and enforce decorum and a pecking order amongst the confrontational types.
You don’t go around picking on us for being vanilla, but you did accuse us of misogyny and delete all of your posts while quitting in a huff. And you did just call DFA “a piece of shit” and more or less bully him off the site. I welcomed you back after your hiatus, and I’m glad you’re here, but I would appreciate it if you would not try to dictate who is and isn’t persona non grata around here.
Thank you for standing up to me, by the way. I appreciate it. As all trolls do, I hate my own kind and want nothing more than for us all to be eradicated from the face of the Earth.
I am obviously in no place to dictate anything. However, if DFA is so sensitive that all it takes to get him to quit is Bed pointing out his weaknesses and me telling him to go fuck himself, then he needs to go work on himself and toughen his armor if he expects to survive unscathed in an environment of arrows while being the most prolific archer.
As for me, I’m a masochist and an addict. I’ve tried to quit hanging out online with you cats at least five times over the last five years, but every time I do, I end up creeping back around… and then I read something like “FK is dying because too many people have left and nobody’s replacing them” and during those moments, FK looks like a sad lost kitten and I don’t want her to die alone on the street, so I take her in and give her some tuna and lovin’s.
Yet, I don’t have a very deep heart. After a while, the kitten becomes an annoying furball cat again and I want to send it back outside to live on rats and birds.
Is it stupid or silly of me to be mulling over the idea of asking Nevermoor to block my IP address, in the same way that a compulsive gambler (in a moment of clarity or self-loathing… I don’t know which) sends his picture to all the casinos within driving distance and asks them to put him on their “banned” lists?
It is both silly and stupid of you. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.
Kay could ask. Not something I know how to do, and I’m not willing to learn.
Welcome to the new format…and the old meta wars.
I’m not going to comment on this metasplosion any more, except to say that I wish none of the people here would leave, and that hurtful comments would stop, because the Kraut is the worse for it every time.
Well, I don’t want to make FK worse in any way so I’ll apologize for any of my hurtful comments and hope that both elcroata and DFA take very short breaks.
Yup.
Yes, this
I also like ec and can’t wait for him to come back either
I don’t much care for posts from FSU. he is always reminding me one direction exists
That’s the one direction you won’t admit exists.
I just got a text from Bridget the Midget…it turns out she’s a huge DFA fan and she’s coming to kill me.
I’m kind of tired of me. I should probably go.
Maybe if we all leave we can get a group rate.
rosencrantz and guildenstern are DEAD!
Sorry, I never read Mark Twain.
I think this post needs a new title.
Or just shut down.
Even better…delete the damn thing and start over.
The New Layout Thread where everyone quits the site.
The New Layout Thread where everyone goes and fucks themselves.
In truth, though, the new site design would look even more elegant if it weren’t cluttered up with all these posts and comments.
Welcome to the Terrordome
sirthread
A good rule of thumb is anytime the word “sir” is in a title or name it’s probably bad.
30 or so FKers enter..at least 2 leave. WELCOME TO FKerDOME!
I want Tina Turner to play my role.
So I guess you arrive dead.
Did Ike finally kill her?
We can even include a cameo by that Nakajima guy we signed. We will kick him out while singing “we dont need another Hiro”.
5Aces…you’ve been very clever in your posts today.
Tagline?
Every time the Kraut on Kraut tag is put on a thread an angel gets it wings…and then flies over to someone’s house and beats someone to death.
What else are wings for but vicious beatings?
huh. so this is what happens when i mark a thread as read.
can i just…
Soooooo…I assume we can still use this thread for tech questions? Nm, is there a way to put a button at the bottom of each page that says “top” that will bounce you right to the top of the page? On my iPad, when I get to the bottom of a thread and want to bounce over to another one, I have to swipe all the way to the top which is a PITA. Or is there an easier way that I’m missing?
I used to just pull down my bookmark and “reopen” the site, but it is still not saving my login, so then I have to re-login every time. Thanks!
I second this one. For some reason, apple didn’t see fit to include home/end keys on this keyboard (and yet they fit just fine on my 11″ laptop keyboard). So I have to grab the scroll bar to get back up to the top of a long thread.
Are you talking about a physical keyboard? Cmd-Up works to go to the top of a page. (I would prefer having actual pgup/pgdown/home/end keys too.)
I did not know that shortcut. Thanks!!
Thirded and Im ticked I didnt think of asking for that weeks ago.
Also, can we get a new tech thread and nuke this one pls?
oh my god yes
You can usually just tap with one finger to go to the top of the page on an iPad. BUT, on FK that sometimes causes the toolbar to pop up.
Tap where? I’d like to give that a try.
On my iOS device (ancient ipod touch) a single tap just below the time/battery/connection status bar on top does this.
Exactly. Tap just about where it shows the time.
Omg you two just blew my mind. That is awesome!
I’ll mark this resolved then.
Also: anyone know why javascript scrolling would work properly on keypress but improperly when based on a clicked button in the admin bar? It’s the same function call from both places.
That’s one of the keyboard shortcut functions that I want to put on the admin bar (assuming there are still users by the time I can get to it.
Tech questions?? What do you think this thread is for??
Just like a drunk grandpa crashing into the orchestra on his way back from the john on the third morning of a Croatian wedding, I too need to grab the microphone and share a few invaluable pearls of wisdom with all of you dying to hear yet another speech.
But, I will also make it a short one.
Please don’t blow this out of proportion. I am simply tired of endless debates I involve myself in, and I realized that I either don’t have the energy for it anymore or I think I can use what energy I have for better causes. I obviously don’t have the self-restraint or discipline or wisdom or whatever the quality is needed to ignore, and I assume my ego must be bigger than most here are, as sometimes I just can’t let the other guy just be wrong and claim he is right. It also could be very much true that I am an one-upper (hey, I learned a new word!) and everyone was just being nice and never pointing it out to me (although certainly not in the ridiculously insane context mentioned above). I love telling stories, I lived through many of them and many times when someone mentions something, it reminds me of the one I know. To anyone who felt molested by it, I apologize.
But, the bottom line is – my break is a free decision. Nobody forced me to take it. I am taking it — this brief reappearance notwithstanding — because I was tired of both the type of rhetoric I was faced with and with my own inability to have it not matter to me. Probably even more with the latter one. In the end, I am not taking the break because DFA is who and what he is on Internet, I am taking it to re-evaluate my own values and approach to what I need and what I get from online communities.
And that is why nobody should abstain from any form of contribution here and nobody should try to force DFA or anyone else leave. FK is so much more than two people unable to communicate, and although I am taking a hiatus mostly for my egoistical reasons, a part of me wanted to save the community from the stupid meta. So, you know, let’s not completely defeat that purpose, huh?
I also want to let you all know that I am in a good place. I am neither hurt nor angry. I actually looked at the response to my last posting above and the sheer thought of having to deal with it made me almost physically ill. If I were still here I couldn’t not do anything about it. But right now, I see it and I am relieved, because by stepping back I managed not to care and to go for my first bike tour in three months instead. When I learn how to be like that when I am around here, I’ll be back.
If you want to contact me before that because you are dying for the insider info on European handball or you need some shit from Croatia smuggled across the border, my web page should be linked to my handle (I think our Spiderman needs to activate it, and possibly approve this comment now that I have the link), which in term has my e-mail listed. I hope to see some of you in late October, when the A’s will be finishing off the Pirates in Pittsburgh.
Peace.
P.S. OK, I lied about making it a short one. I also lied about having insider information on European handball. But if water polo is your thing though, than I am definitely your man.
SO taglined.
See you in October!