Ok folks. The holidays are over and the new year is upon us. It’s time to get serious about learning to shoot/hunt.
I’ve done some research on our options, but before I get into that, I want to quickly address the recent shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary head on because a couple of FKers have brought it to my attention. One of the main reasons that I am interested in re-learning to shoot is because I’m not very knowledgeable about guns, and I’d like to be. I don’t like the idea of being ignorant of something that something that has such an impact on our society. Whether it’s being able to meaningfully engage in a discussion of gun control, or knowing what to do in a situation where a gun is present, it’s knowledge that I want. The Sandy Hook shootings only heighten my desire for this information. If any of you FKers want to discuss this issue more, I’m happy to do so in the comments.
I’ve looked into both actually shooting guns and hunter education and here is what I have learned:
Hunter Eduction
Chabot Gun Club and The Livermore-Pleasanton Rood and Gun Club offer Hunter Education classes. These classes are non-firing classes (no guns), cost $15 and are offer monthly. The Livermore-Pleasanton class is a 3-day class which meets on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. The Chabot class is a one day class (although it’s a long day), on the second Saturday of the month. Given that it’s going to be hard to get everyone together on any day, trying to get everyone together for 3 days seems even more challenging. I would suggest that we look towards the February class (February 9th) as the January one is this week. Pre-registration is required and they limit the class to 25, so we need get on this soon. I’m happy to register us once we have a head count.
Actually Shooting Guns
There aren’t a lot of options for firing a gun if you don’t own one. Conveniently, Jackson Arms in South San Francisco rents guns and has an indoor firing range. They offer a Novice Shooter’s Package, which includes 25 minutes in the classroom, 50 minutes at the range, a gun, ammo, 2 targets and eye & ear protection for $50. They over this weekdays at 7pm, Saturday at 11 and 5, Sunday at 11.
If you are interested in any of this, let me know what you are interested in and in the case of Jackson Arms, let me know what your preferred day of the week is and I can organize it.
TL:DR: Hunter’s Education Class at Chabot Gun Club on Feb 9th. Novice Shooter’s Package at Jackson Arms, day TBD.
And you honestly believe that learning what types of guns there are, owning one or shooting at a range will help you with that? ditto for hunter’s education?
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Depends on the situation. A Sandy Hook/Aurora style shooter on a rampage, FK no, but I can definitely picture scenarios where knowing how to safely unloading a loaded gun, for example, could be useful. Hunter’s education is less about that, and more about starting the process of learning to hunt, which a number of FKers are interested in.
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Yeah, I’ve noticed the turkeys out front whispering to the gopher. They may be up to something. Cue the South Park vid.
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It might help one be able to identify whether a gun presents a threat (e.g. is it loaded, is the safety off) and be able to handle one without accidentally shooting oneself or one’s loved ones should the need arise. Although accidentally shooting oneself or one’s loved ones seems to happen to a lot of gun owners, so maybe not.
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Always assume it’s loaded. Lesson over.
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ie Firearm Rule #1
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Rules #1 thru 100, really. It’s that important.
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Well, yeah, but Rule 1 is literally “All Weapons Are Always Loaded”
For actual shooting, you FKers should plan a trip to Reno for this. We’re gun-happy out here and there are lots of instructors who will give you a full-day class and let you use a wide variety of guns. For example, this sounds about like what you want.
I’ve thought about doing something like this; if I then decided to buy I’d be able to narrow down the selection. Once you’ve bought, you can then come back and spend another day in training with your specific gun in order to get your Nevada concealed-carry permit. I don’t believe the Nevada concealed-carry permit is valid in California though.
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Correct.
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I think that’s a great suggestion, but for me at least, it’s probably not a realistic scenario right now. Maybe that can be part 2.
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Yes, it’s probably a bit ambitious to start out by making a gun class the feature of a weekend trip. Seriously, I’m thinking about taking some local introductory class like “Firearms 101″ at this place, and will consider how to proceed from there.
Fwiw, I’ve only ever shot here, and they appear to rent guns as long as your party size is at least 2
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I can’t remember if I had come across them before. It appears that they offer rental and classes, but the classes are pricey and I wouldn’t feel comfortable just walking in, renting a gun and heading to the lane. The novice shooter package seems like a good option for most of us.
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Your call, obviously. I won’t be able to do either.
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Bummer, but I totally understand.
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There are places like “The Range” in Fresno that allows you to rent an unlimited # of handguns for $10(one at a time of course) as long as you buy their ammo. Last time I went I fired 10 different 9mm handguns for the $10. This gives you an excellent option for selecting the right size/caliber for your needs.
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Sorry for not including their link.
I’m interested in the second one.
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Cool, any preference for day of the week/time?
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Any of the weekend times listed would work for me, as long as it’s not over the weekend of the 26th/27th.
Without RSVPing to either, in my opinion it is a fallacy to believe that one must have working knowledge of shooting and guns to be “able to meaningfully engage in a discussion of gun control.” In fact, I believe that the pro-gun lobby deliberately cultivates this so as to skew the range of debate (e.g., if you can’t define the difference between semi-auto and fully auto your opinion is invalid). It’s obviously in the gun manufacturers’ interests to have debate conducted on that friendly terrain rather than around what common sense steps a nation should take to make mass slaughter less possible.
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That was my reaction/response as well. Though yours is much more eloquently worded that what mine might have been.
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At the same time, though, some of the things banned in the last Assault Weapon ban were pretty silly, and clearly not related to any public danger. I think it’s fair to say that some of that does relate to ignorance.
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True. Banning bayonet lugs doesn’t make much sense. Who would want one anyway?
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I’d say part (though definitely not all) of that is people aren’t necessarily ignorant so much as defining their terms differently.
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Two different things. Of course, those who draft legislation need to be well-versed in all the details. That’s not the same, though, as the level of knowledge required to have meaningful discourse. I really believe that focusing discussion on technical matters actively (and deliberately) moves the discussion away from the actual important part…because if the debate is about protecting innocent lives, the pro-gun people lose, by a lot.
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I mean… why start now???
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I think lobbyists are usually well-versed in the all the details.
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Snerk.
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Your point that the pro-gun lobby has shifted the ground of he debate into favorable territory by advancing the notion that your opinion only counts if you are well versed in the technical aspects of guns is totally spot on. And yes, people can engage in debate without a working knowledge of guns, but it would be foolish to suggest that the level of knowledge it irrelevant. I can easily say “I support gun control” or “I support greater regulations on financial institutions” but without more in depth knowledge, neither of those statements means much. And sure, it’s possible to educate oneself about guns without shooting them, but there’s a lot to be said for participating in the activity in question to understand it., and that’s not the only reason for this.
Furthermore, why not take away one of the few arguments that the pro-gun lobby has (you don’t know about guns, you haven’t fired them, you don’t own them, etc). It shifts the debate from one of gun owners vs. pinko lefties to reasonable people vs. gun manufacturers/fringe gun owners.
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Sure, but I get why (some) pro-gun folks think liberals are silly on this one. Tutu’s example above, for example, is a good one.
I’m a tentative on the 2/9 hunter education class – we’ll have friends in from out of town so may be spending part of the day with them. As for the shooting package, it looks like the rentals are only pistols. As I’m only interested in it from the potential to learn to hunt, that doesn’t really interest me. I can’t tell if the one in Marin has rifles for rent – I’ll have to contact them to see.
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The problem you may find with that is that most indoor ranges aren’t equipped to handle a rifle’s ballistics. I haven’t seen an indoor range where you can shoot farther than 15 yards. That is much closer than you would be in hunting. Since the shooting session is outdoors, you may have to borrow a rifle from a friend, or ask the range for your options.
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Makes sense. Both Chabot and LPRGC look like they have extensive outdoor ranges, and I found this on Chabot’s site regarding their .22 program:
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Another option for shooting safety, is the “Project Appleseed“. They are extremely safety conscious, and Youth under 18, as well as women and military shoot for free. They offer weekend classes all over the nation. It isn’t a hunter safety course, just a course to teach proper shooting technique. If you look under their Appleseed tab, there is a list of locales and dates
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I will say I saw someone using a shotgun at the Marin one last time I was there. I think it’s > 15 yards but a whole lot less than hunting range.
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Did I miss the conversation about the exultation of killing? Did it include the thrill of wounding and maiming? The allure of agony and desperate terror? Aren’t those much more likely outcomes than any clean kill shots, especially early-on in your careers as masters of the universe? What about reducing the technological advantage, at least to bows and arrows before it’s called sporting? Or shooting with a camera?
I’ll shut up now, but I think I’ll pass on the recreation.
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Who said any of those things? If, and I say if, I actually do decide to learn to hunt, it will not be for sport. It would be so that when I did eat meat, it would be meat that I was willing and able to kill myself, and dress and butcher, and that had lived a free life in the wild eating what comes naturally to it.
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So, this is like that wild boar section of Omnivore’s Dilemma? I loves me most Michael Pollan, but that whole part of the “meal” set-up in the book just didn’t compute for me. I also suspect that the economics of hunting have a whole lot to do with marginal costing, BUT — all that said, I respect folks on this Board and I’ve been down this particular tubily road often enough to know that it brings out my inner asshole and generates much more heat than light. So I intend to avoid these sections, as least as they pertain to the dispatch of quadrupeds and avians.
Feel free to remind me of this pledge, as my inner asshole is prone to peeking.
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I don’t think that you are a real asshole when you talk about these issues, and you have often taken me in your sights. I think your voice is helpful as a reminder of an alternative vision.
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I would be ok with hunting with a bow and arrow though I think the likelihood of wounding an animal without killing it and thereby increasing suffering increases.
My desire is to be more conscious that what I eat comes from somewhere that isn’t a butchers shop or grocery store and that what I choose to eat was alive and that I am choosing to end that life as a result of my decision to eat meat. I believe that I shouldn’t get off without having to kill some of my food myself.
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It is also extremely cost conscious to do so. Our wild pig cost less than $2@ pound. That included about 70 pounds of sausage, two 14 lbs hams, lots of ribs and pork chops for the upcoming BBQ season.
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Also wild pigs are an invasive species in many parts of the country.
What are you including in the cost? Are you including electricity for your extra freezer?
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The freezer costs would be almost impossible to calculate, due to the many other items in it.
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I don’t have a second freezer… so 70 lbs of meat might be much.
I could definitely con my mom and uncle and friends into taking some tho.
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That was just the sausage! The entire sow netted about 129lbs!
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fuck.
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You can find used freezers for about $25. I got mine for free from a lady who wanted me to take it to the dump for her. The only part of the meat I didn’t like was the bacon. I don’t know if that is due to the meat or the way it was cured. The sausage is awesome in spaghetti, biscuits and gravy, chili, etc.
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I wonder how long it would take to eat my weight in pork?
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#tagline
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Well, apparently Joey Chestnut can do 20 pounds of bacon in 10 minutes.
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I wonder how crispy that bacon is.
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I think I’ll just go cry in the corner now.
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DFA: The Other White Meat
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Depends. Are you Jewish?
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No but I might be delicious.
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Delicious treif.
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Im eating figs and cheese to fatten up right now.
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Why do you want to fatten up?
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Well if FSU is going to eat me, as a friend, I believe it is my duty to taste good. Lean meat tastes boring much of the time.
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I trust you’ve hooked yourself up to a force-feeder for the fois gras.
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gulls have no gag reflex and a much stronger esophogas.
Ill just gut feed myself.
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Gull fois gras … that takes wrong to a whole new level.
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huh… i have no recollection of writing that.
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I agree as to the nature of wild/feral pigs. The feds have finally started to address them. One of the new 2013 laws makes it illegal to release pigs into the wild. Now, we just need the state of California to list them as a pest rather than a sport animal.
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What would that distinction entail?
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As CA law currently stands, you need a hunting license to kill a pig. The exemption is when they do property damage(which is what they do best). At that point, you can have the county trapper set up a trap, at which point he shoots the pigs, and give you the carcass. You HAVE to have the certificate from the trapper before any butcher can legally process your meat. It is a total joke. Most states are begging people to kill pigs as they have few natural predators, and they reproduce at staggering numbers. California should drop the “sport” label on pigs. If I remember correctly, even with the current regulations, hunters kill approx. 30,000 hogs per year, and the herd is still growing.
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New Zealand has totally crazy hunting laws. They have really unique native wildlife (no large mammals at all, before the arrival of westerners) and have gotten very aggressive about getting rid of invasive species. When I was down in Antarctica, some folks of the redneck persuasion were pretty excited about going pig hunting via helicopter.
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It won’t be long until the pigs in my area start invading Yosemite National Park. Each sow can have three litters per year, of up to 8 piglets each. 3 months after birth, they become fertile. The math has shown that hunting alone can control them. I have read that universities are experimenting with sterilizers in feed, but that is still a ways off from implementation.
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Don’t kill them! Genetically modify them! What could possibly go wrong?????
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No kidding! it is working for the cat population, oh….wait a sec….forget it. If California would just re-classify them as vermin, like gophers, there will be a whole lot less of them.
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Don’t forget to get your Pigs spayed or neutered.
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heeheehee!☺
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You’d think with the national obsession with bacon that this wouldn’t be a problem.
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We like to eat bacon, not make it.
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We have 5 children, so we obviously like “makin’ bacon!”
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The walls start shaking,
The earth was quaking,
My mind was aching,
And we ate bacon…
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You…. fried me all. night. long.
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so much win
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fuck that I like my bacon chewy!
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You can get chewy fried bacon at a lower heat, if it’s fatty enough.
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Oops.. “…hunting alone CAN’T control them.”
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I was wondering about that one. From the context it sounded like you were making the other point, and now it turns out that you were.
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Those ducks aren’t gonna confit themselves!
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The 2/9 class is all fucking day (6-7:30) so if you are going to spend part of the day with them, it wouldn’t work.
As for the range, their rental page lists Long Gun as well as handguns and the package mentions an upgrade. There are long guns(rifles) that take the .22lr ammo, so I’m pretty sure it could work. I’ll find out for sure and follow up.
Can’t we go to Texas and learn to shoot from Alex Jones? From the looks of this, he gets some AWESOME drugs down there as well, always an attraction for me.
Is this so we can defend ourselves if ** invades?
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Hide your kids…hide your goats…
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Is there a clear and present danger of Exodus 3.0?
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Is there anyone left to leave?
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Should I just join again, so I can leave after one angry meta post about the National Man Goat Love Association (NAMGLA)?
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That’s what I thought.
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I just took a look over there. That place is about as lively as Bucharest – on a Tuesday night.
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And that’s how they like it. I guess it’s not a question of being a small-market blog, it’s a question of being a dead-market blog.
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Blez is making money. Mission accomplished.
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Exactly. And for that part, more power to him
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Sretan rođendan to you sir :D
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Hvala lijepo!
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WHAT did you just call my mother???
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Definitely. I’ve always said that. It’s just sad the way that he went about it.
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Yep. Hell, I wish I had had the idea first, kudos for the forward thinking. But you still could have had nice things and put some coin in your pocket.
And of course the reason it is a bigger issue is that he started with ** and then built the empire. I doubt anyone would feel this way if they sw changes in D-Rays Bay, or whatever they call their SBN pit stop.
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D-Rays Bay was (maybe still is) a misogynist shithole of astounding asshattery.
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And they were only picked because it was the only name I could think of while typing (odd that I didnt think of any of the AL West sites or McC..). So if it makes a better example to use a less asshated site please fill that in the blank.
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Well Bucharest in its prime was ran by Ceausescu, so certain tangents do apply
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BTW, my line was based (poorly) on a quote from a 34-year-old movie.
Also, I have been in Bucharest on a Tuesday night, and it was indeed dead, except for the riot police that showed up to break up a protest by the coal miners.
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I was thinking they might try to kidnap some of us, chain us to desks, and force us to post in an attempt to make the site look more popular and attract more traffic.
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One person clicking on an ad is worth at least 10x the number posting and creating content.
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Maybe they’ll make us all click on ads.
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There you go
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“Joe Mauer’s face is the only baseball-related thing that matters. Click on it until it’s seared into your brain! Ignore those pesky fan posts and A’s related info!”
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heh
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Remember when they wanted to arm doctors to protect themselves from “pro-life” murderers?
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Hmmm… don’t recall that either.
You’d almost think that they value freedom for themselves but not so much for those with whom they disagree!
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Of course, in the Trayvon Martin case, they’re still convinced that he was the aggressor and that Zimmerman was justified in shooting him.
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well, trayvon martin was black, right?
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He sure was Brother Ed… and as we know from The NRA Gospels (Book of Scary Savage Nigger), Blacks are always the aggressors. Like that time they held guns to our ancestors’ heads and forced them at pain of death to sail across the ocean and kidnap hundreds of thousands of Africans to this continent, where they were so belligerent and savage they had to be chained to each other and sold like cattle to be brutalized and slaughtered at will for the amusement and enrichment of their masters, who were only defending themselves after all.
When I look at the gun-sales statistics and 80% are purchased by people from suburban neighborhoods with very low crime rates, it makes me smile to know that those nice people are armed and ready to meet the hordes of angry, uncivilized Blacks, who as we have seen have spent the last several decades riding from hamlet to hamlet, raping and pillaging the defenseless white masses in ever-more-graphic ways that would give Hannibal a hard-on. All I can say is, THANK YOU BEAUTIFUL PURE CAUCASIAN JESUS for being the only white guy ever born in the Middle East, and bringing us this glorious Second Amendment so we’d never be without recourse when the subhuman, aggressive savages who would destroy our sacred way of life come skulking into town to do us the harm they’ve been aggressively doing to us for centuries.
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love
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What’s beautiful and scary about this is how over-the-top it is; yet I’ve heard it all before from people who mean it…
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The best satire is that that can and some times is confused for reality.
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I’m pretty sure Hannibal’s Hard-On is one of those underground punk bands you kids are always going on about.
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Thanks you guys. If not for your encouragement re: what I write, I’d just as soon depart this utterly miserable planetation situation for good and lay my burden down.
And yes, Kay is correct. Everything I said, insane as it is, is EXACTLY what millions upon millions believe as if it came from the lips of NRA Jesus (TM) Himself. My life mission is to make some gesture, however feeble, at pushing the rest of us to recognize that fact and get out of the attitude that our need to preserve our perception of our moment free from recrimination and struggle — and our mass-media-assisted desire to sugarcoat that moment with fantasies that deny these stark realities so we can convince ourselves that we feel better and everything is cool — is half the motherFK’ed reason it is this way in the first place.
Everything is NOT FUCKING COOL. In fact, we are surrounded in this country by talking animals straight out of a cross between Deliverance and Idiocracy, with brain stems, genitals, large guns and little else but the intentional disinformation (designed from the highest level to subjugate them –and us — in precisely this way) they have been fed from birth. And it’s largely the fault of the rest of us, ensconced in our private, self-circumscribed comfort zones, that lets them dominate the discourse as they do and keeps the Overton Window of all things permanently to the right of Joseph McCarthy whilst we watch the last hopes for a life worth living sail into the sunset and the perfect neo-feudalism the power structure seeks to impose (hint: they need working class people to hate each other for it to work) becomes more efficacious in every way and on every day.
I realize 98% of all my friends and everyone I’ve ever known roundly despises me for knowing and saying these things, but it is what it is and I want to die — yes, I expect to be dead very soon cuz like Waylon Jennings I ain’t livin’ long like this — at least knowing that I didn’t hold back about what I saw right the FK in front of me in this wretched, death-worshiping excuse for a civilization, saturated with auto-sycophantic apologists for its mendacious perfidy (they think Stockholm Syndrome is a vacation to Scandinavia) as it truly is.
I called Jackson Arms and they do indeed have rifles that can be part of the Novice Shooter Package.
A very interesting article about the history of gun control laws in America, and how the NRA was behind most of them
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I’ll need the password to your Yahoo e-mail account to read what you’ve tried to link there. TIA.
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That’s weird.
This should work.
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This is as interesting. Of course, she at some point stopped renewing it. Well, maybe because you and I pay for her protection now.
There is also evidence that when we ban all firearms, these mass school killings will stop.
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Dianne Feinstein is an idiot and a war profiteer. Citing her is stupid.
Also like she said there, there was a real and legitimate threat to her safety. Last time I checked most people don’t have terrorist groups plotting to kill them.
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How do you know?
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would you expect “them specifically”?
If so, then small good a concealed rifle would do against an incoming 747/planted bomb/etc.
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What?
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I’m clearly not understanding your objection.
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he was joking.
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Why is it not ok to quote her? SHe is one of the staunchest supporters of gun control in Congress. Isn’t she the driving force behind the AWB in the Senate?
That’s true there is a much larger threat when I walk into a 7-11 store. I find it interesting that she was ok with her carrying a weapon into a hospital. She also claimed that she was going to take as many of them with her. I thought only rural rednecks spoke that way.
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You do know why we have Diane Feinstein, right?
You can’t seriously believe that you walking to 7-11 is the same as her walking anywhere, can you?
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We have her because the majority of Californians voted for her.
Compare the rate of crimes committed against elected officials and the common citizen. Assault weapons account for less than 1% of all gun homicides in the US. More people are killed in car VS deer accidents every year.
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ban deer.
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…and cars
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and accidents
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I thought this said “ban beer”. I couldn’t believe my eyes …
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That would be the start of a revolution!
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Please cite a study that shows this. Because it isn’t true
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Which Part?
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we have diane feinstein because the mayor was shot and killed by a colleague.
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Mayors don’t pass laws in congress
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this is incredibly obtuse.
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The point is that the Milk / Moscone shooting launched her career.
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I’m sorry for not understanding the point. I had no reason to even acknowledge her existence until the entire state was stuck with her in the Senate.
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No worries. I could tell there was a failure to communicate.
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so? if one person will be alive today that would not have been alive because of an assault weapon, then ban them.
Look, I get it, I am a gun grabber, I would take them all. I know that is not happening. A ban on assault weapons* is the best I can hope for
*I concede the definition is the hardest part.
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You do know that the police kill more people with assault weapons than regular citizens do, right? Of the 11000 gun homicides in the US, only 338 were a result of all types of rifles.
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The answer to that is that police shouldn’t have assault weapons either. Or all the other DHS goodies they are inundated with.
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I can agree with you there! ☺
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WE DID IT! YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN!
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I bet we can agree on one other thing. FK THE GIANTS!
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REC’D!♥
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woo hoo!
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Because
1 She didn’t get an assault weapon so there is no hypocrisy here.
2 Everyone knows that the AWB was weaksauce and a shitty law.
3 Being a public figure like the Mayor of SF after a terrorist shot both the previous mayor and a member of the BOS, or a US Senator whom whack jobs are actively trying to kill is different than just being joe fucking schmo
4 Feeling safe =/= being safe. Many people feel safer in an SUV but they are more dangerous due to rollovers and a high center of gravity than regular cars. Im sure if we gave everyone a fking valium they would feel much more calm and safe but its shitty public policy for preventing bad things from hapening.
Im sorry that your argument is so incredibly specious.
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Yeah, while I don’t think his larger argument has merit, there’s nothing wrong with Tutu quoting DiFi, who has a lot more direct experience with gun violence than any of us here do (I assume). I don’t like DiFi either, as you know, but that doesn’t make her a bogus source.
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Moron says/does something stupid/surprises no one.
His argument is a logical fallacy and appeal to authority.
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The moron here is DiFi for clarification
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Whew! :)
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Dianne Feinstein is a lot of things, many unflattering, but she’s clearly not a moron. You might consider reigning in your use of that inapt and needlessly inflammatory description; it makes your arguments seem weak.
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She has done some incredibly stupid things over the years like:
Acknowledged that Bush had no evidence of WMD before the vote and voted for the war anyway.
She recently got bilked by her treasurer for $7m.
She supports destroying the internet as the Senator from one of the most tech centric states in the country.
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Hey, the most scathing political hate letter I ever wrote was to DiFi, on that war vote. But if you’d practice language usage in which “moron” is not a synonym for “person whose views I despise,” you’d sound less like a dickhead windbag.
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It isn’t about her views. Its that her views aren’t defensible with her own world view. Its a personal inconsistency.
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I don’t get the “you and I pay for her protection” thing. Should we not pay for the protection of elected leaders?
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Meaning that if we didn’t supply her the protection that you and I are not entitled to, she would still be packing her concealed firearm. If you look at the court cases, police are not required to protect us, and cannot be held liable for refusing/failing to protect an individual.
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that cannot be true
You can have a body guard. you can have 10, 20, or 50
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Just google it. The courts have ruled as I commented.
So, if you are rich,(can afford to hire bodyguards), or connected( the people pay for it) you can have protection, but the rest of the population can’t?
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Who says poor people can’t?
Not me.
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Didn’t Anatole France have something to say about that?
Or was that just sleeping under bridges, begging and stealing bread?
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My favorite quote. And yes, I was thinking that too.
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You must’ve been lonely at Chicago.
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Nah. It’s a conservative school in that it’s 60/40 liberal instead of 95/5 like most high end law schools.
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I’ve just been cited. Or at least quoted. But cited sounds better, so that’s the one I’m going with.
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you are a wise man*
*please don’t take a screen shot of this like pam would.
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I won’t. Even with a screen shot, no one would ever believe it.
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Clearly photoshopped.
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They’d also never believe that I have any photoshop skills.
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And it’s in a neighborhood that is like 98% liberal.